John Williams receives 54th Oscar nomination for Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny!

[Edmilson 7,466]

15 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Not quite. Had Williams scored Spiderverse and Pemberton DoD, the former would proably be oscar nominated because Williams wrote it. Little catering for the actual qualities of the score or whether Pemberton in that particular case happened to write a more engaging, appropriate score.

So what you're saying is that Williams only got nominated because... he's Williams. There's no merit whatsoever in his score for DoD. Probably the music branch didn't even hear his music, they just saw his name on the credits and went like "oh, this movie was scored by John Williams? Let's give him a nom quickly!". And because of that he has stolen the place of people who worked harder and actually deserved being there, such as Pemberton or Ronson for Barbie, or maybe Anthony Willis for Saltburn or whatever.

 

If Williams only gets nominations on the basis of his name, why was he excluded in 2008 for Indy 4? It's a John Williams score, so it MUST be nominated, regardless of it being good or not (judging by your arguments, Williams could literally just whistle for one hour and he'd be nominated all the same). Or why was he excluded in 1992, the year where he wrote not one but two scores? Shouldn't he get two noms that year then?

 

Nevermind that after years of controversies the Academy voters are much younger and more diverse now than in 92 or 2008. Theoretically they should've given noms to Pemberton and Ronson. So if they chose JW over these guys is because they think that the DOD score is not actually that unworthy.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

39 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

Ok, that's boderline bad faith.

 

He writes TPM off but praises AotC third act that's just tracked from TPM... I don't respect his opinions on scores since this video. Poor Sideways was clearly uncomfortable.

 

Schaff is sometimes quite uninformed when it comes to cinema in general, but Sideways has had his fair share of saying stupid shit... His Tarzan video comes to mind or his video about Silvestri's Avengers making him unable to not think of Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man.

 

I don't dissaprove that they express their opinions freely; my only problem is when the consumers of their channels (or any YT channel for that matter) repeat the discourse like it's some kind of gospel. 

 

/oldmanrantover

[GerateWohl 4,370]

55 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Not quite. Had Williams scored Spiderverse and Pemberton DoD, the former would proably be oscar nominated because Williams wrote it. Little catering for the actual qualities of the score or whether Pemberton in that particular case happened to write a more engaging, appropriate score.

Where is the evidence for that besides from your infallible stomach feeling that Williams' DoD score has no award value apart from his name?

[Richard Penna 3,694]

27 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

So what you're saying is that Williams only got nominated because... he's Williams. There's no merit whatsoever in his score for DoD.

 

No, I think DoD is decent, but I think that in the bigger picture when you consider Williams' nominations, the thought process probably wasn't immune to 'it's Williams... of course we nominate him'.

 

BTW, the Spiderverse talk is just an example because someone else mentioned it positively. I've never heard it.

[JTN 2,030]

30 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

So what you're saying is that Williams only got nominated because... he's Williams. There's no merit whatsoever in his score for DoD. Probably the music branch didn't even hear his music, they just saw his name on the credits and went like "oh, this movie was scored by John Williams? Let's give him a nom quickly!". And because of that he has stolen the place of people who worked harder and actually deserved being there, such as Pemberton or Ronson for Barbie, or maybe Anthony Willis for Saltburn or whatever.

 

If Williams only gets nominations on the basis of his name, why was he excluded in 2008 for Indy 4? It's a John Williams score, so it MUST be nominated, regardless of it being good or not (judging by your arguments, Williams could literally just whistle for one hour and he'd be nominated all the same). Or why was he excluded in 1992, the year where he wrote not one but two scores? Shouldn't he get two noms that year then?

 

Nevermind that after years of controversies the Academy voters are much younger and more diverse now than in 92 or 2008. Theoretically they should've given noms to Pemberton and Ronson. So if they chose JW over these guys is because they think that the DOD score is not actually that unworthy.

Good god, Ed, I can’t take you seriously with that profile pic. You’re betraying James.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

10 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Where is the evidence for that besides from your infallible stomach feeling that Williams' DoD score has no award value apart from his name?

 

Never said no award value - just that name power feels like it might be a factor in giving it that extra push that most other composers don't have.

 

Of course, the music branch may well consider it an outstanding score in this case, and I'm very aware I'm not in the majority in not particularly loving this score (what's on the album is solid, enjoyable). But I still reserve my assessment that name power has been effective in the past.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

12 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Never said no award value - just that name power feels like it might be a factor in giving it that extra push that most other composers don't have.

 

Of course, the music branch may well consider it an outstanding score in this case, and I'm very aware I'm not in the majority in not particularly loving this score (what's on the album is solid, enjoyable). But I still reserve my assessment that name power has been effective in the past.

If we would have this same discussion on the Fabelmans, I would rather get your point. But in this case I find that argument rather disrespectful and almost offending.

[Gabriel Bezerra 302]

I believe Pemberton deserves it, I really like how he tells a story through the music in the Spiderverse movies, using mainly orchestration, but also his themes, as distinct as they are, always coming from the same idea that connects them all, it's great and worthy.

 

But so is Williams for Dial. The only thing I don't get is this urge to diminish someone else's work to up the other... there's only 5 spots, someone will be left out. 

 

[Edmilson 7,466]

26 minutes ago, JTW said:

Good god, Ed, I can’t take you seriously with that profile pic. You’re betraying James.

Well, back in early December I was so sure JW would not be nominated that I made this bet. 

 

But don't worry, it's just until February 23rd.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

13 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

If we would have this same discussion on the Fabelmans, I would rather get your point. But in this case I find that argument rather disrespectful and almost offending.

 

I'm curious as to why. I'm suggesting Williams is so revered and respected (and rightly so) that perhaps on some occasions he is pushed forward for awards because of his peers' admiration for him as an artist, when the score in question perhaps doesn't reach the heights of his most classic works and therefore declaring it the best score might be overreacting. And hence another composer who perhaps had a particularly inspiring project, may have done more interesting work that particular year, but don't have the established cache Williams has and therefore get less recognition.

 

Although as I said before, it I had to pick a winner out of this specific lot, it's Williams.

[Damien F 1,742]

A 2023 JW score shouldn't have to compare against JW's best work to earn a nomination. It should only have to compare against other 2023 scores. I love the DoD score but I think even its strongest defenders will acknowledge it cannot match his 1981 - 1989 output or even perhaps KOTCS. But that's not the point of the Oscars. It should only be nominated for its merits as a 2023 score and not as a score when benchmarked against the composer's greatest works. 

[GerateWohl 4,370]

20 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 

I'm curious as to why. I'm suggesting Williams is so revered and respected (and rightly so) that perhaps on some occasions he is pushed forward for awards because of his peers' admiration for him as an artist, when the score in question perhaps doesn't reach the heights of his most classic works and therefore declaring it the best score might be overreacting. And hence another composer who perhaps had a particularly inspiring project, may have done more interesting work that particular year, but don't have the established cache Williams has and therefore get less recognition.

 

Although as I said before, it I had to pick a winner out of this specific lot, it's Williams.

Maybe my perception here is to sensitive into one direction overreading words like "maybe" in your statement.

And yes, the statement, that for the oscars you either need to be a household name or the new fancy hot shit.

 

But it is kind of irony that over long years it seemed, that Williams despite being nominated so often seemed to be avoided when it came to wins because of his image as being too conventional and too oldschool. And now as he seems to have reached a point where people seem to appreciate his classical oldschool qualities and competences, people argue, he might just get nominated or win because of his name.

 

[Tydirium 1,167]

30 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

...when the score in question perhaps doesn't reach the heights of his most classic works and therefore declaring it the best score might be overreacting.

 

Huh? Genuinely puzzled by this. The award isn’t for the composer who reaches/tops their previous work; it’s for the best score of a given year… It’s entirely possible for JW to write a score that “doesn’t reach the heights of his most classic works,” and for that score to still happen to be better than the other contenders...

[GerateWohl 4,370]

8 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

Huh? Genuinely puzzled by this. The award isn’t for the composer who reaches/tops their previous work; it’s for the best score of a given year… It’s entirely possible for JW to write a score that “doesn’t reach the heights of his most classic works,” and for that score to still happen to be better than the other contenders...

Exactly.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

10 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

Huh? Genuinely puzzled by this. The award isn’t for the composer who reaches/tops their previous work; it’s for the best score of a given year…

 

Exactly.

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

42 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Well, back in early December I was so sure JW would not be nominated that I made this bet. 

 

But don't worry, it's just until February 23rd.

Would you mind also changing your status from "Veteran" to "Handsome Devil"?

[Erik Woods 555]

3 hours ago, Tydirium said:

 

Huh? Genuinely puzzled by this. The award isn’t for the composer who reaches/tops their previous work; it’s for the best score of a given year… It’s entirely possible for JW to write a score that “doesn’t reach the heights of his most classic works,” and for that score to still happen to be better than the other contenders...

Exactly!

[Bespin 8,483]

Thinking in absolute terms that a price always goes de facto "to the best" (well, the best according to whom?), is naive and rather foolish. That's not how life works. Even at the Olympics, in events where there is an artistic stake, there is always room for subjectivity.

[Sandor 797]

I'm just happy Williams received a nomination.

 

The man is almost 92 years old, a true living legend and his music has enriched my life for over three decades. 

 

For those offended, annoyed, upset or what other negative emotion his nomination has triggered: it must kinda suck to be you.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

27 minutes ago, Sandor said:

For those offended, annoyed, upset or what other negative emotion his nomination has triggered: it must suck to be you.

 

I'm not offended, annoyed or upset - it's just fun to discuss  

 

And yes, scores are compared against the same year, but most years have plenty of very strong scores by other composers who don't traditionally get awards notice, and which may be better or more original than Williams' offering that year.

[HunterTech 994]

8 hours ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

He writes TPM off but praises AotC third act that's just tracked from TPM... I don't respect his opinions on scores since this video. Poor Sideways was clearly uncomfortable.

 

This I think backs up the theory I have of people's recollections of film scores only going so far as key themes and cues, because they couldn't tell you a damn thing about anything else. At least Schaff is going purely off what's elevating the film the most for him as an overall work, but for anyone else they're not liable to think of anything besides one scene sounding particularly neat.

 

And I guess this is where I do have to be a bit sympathetic, because I seriously struggle with perceiving music whenever I'm watching the movie even after the first time. I think the only reason I could even appreciate DoD and Spider-Verse as much as I do is because I did get a headstart with the music by listening to the OST in the midst of my watches. People just aren't going to put that much in because chances are: they're gonna only want to if it's a film that really spoke to them. It will just be an extension of something they already enjoy most of the time, making it frustrating whenever they speak about something that evidently wasn't that.

 

(Oh yeah, and I gotta be honest: I think I also would put TPM pretty low and AotC pretty high, even once I remove all the tracked stuff.)

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

2 hours ago, Bespin said:

Thinking in absolute terms that a price always goes de facto "to the best" (well, the best according to whom?), is naive and rather foolish. That's not how life works. Even at the Olympics, in events where there is an artistic stake, there is always room for subjectivity.

 

Of course there's always subjectivity, but it would be nice if at least politics or cajoling didn't influence the selections. It would also be nice to live in a world populated with unicorns.

[Tom 4,664]

I will admit a simple bias: I think Williams has suffered an injustice (yes, there are bigger injustices in the world, but an injustice nonetheless) with many, many of his past loses.  So, on any given year, including this year, I think Williams deserves to win to somehow balance out the past issues.  The completely rational part of my mind recognizes this as problematic, but here we are.  

 

I do think that since Williams has never won for an Indy score, all of it should be treated as original in the eyes of the Oscars.  If Shore could win for scores where the latter had copious amounts of themes from the previous or Santaolalla winning for two scores in the same general league of mediocrity then the damn Raider's March in DoD alone should secure an Oscar.

  

[Alex 2,835]

People saying Pemberton has been hard done by, fair enough. Across the Spider-Verse is much more listenable than than the first one. But in my opinion, that’s all it is. It’s like Barbie in a way. It’s fine, but should it be in an awards conversation? No way. Incidentally I think his work on Enola Holmes is much more interesting.
 

It is quite difficult to compare DoD to the other nominations because simply put, there is nothing in the other scores that even comes close to the complexities of structure and orchestration of DoD. JW is just simply from another era and his process is just so different.

To semi-quote Alan Partridge: “Give him another Oscar you shits!”

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

3 hours ago, Tom said:

I will admit a simple bias: I think Williams has suffered an injustice (yes, there are bigger injustices in the world, but an injustice nonetheless) with many, many of his past loses.  So, on any given year, including this year, I think Williams deserves to win to somehow balance out the past issues.

You just never know with the Oscars... I think there's a possibility of Williams getting the sentimental vote and a "send-off Oscar", since DoD could well be his last motion picture score. I wouldn't be surprised if Spielberg is lobbying for him to get it.

 

I'd personally see it as reparation for 'The Empire Strikes Back' not winning...

 

(Yes, I realize this contradicts my last statement. lol)

[Bryant Burnette 654]

I think Oppenheimer deserves this particular win, but I'd be happy for Williams to pick up another Oscar after an unforgivable drought.  That said, he'd be winning for a score that would rank only somewhere in the middle-to-bottom among the scores he's put out since the last time he won an Oscar, and that would feel kind of odd.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

2 hours ago, Bryant Burnette said:

I think Oppenheimer deserves this particular win, but I'd be happy for Williams to pick up another Oscar after an unforgivable drought.  That said, he'd be winning for a score that would rank only somewhere in the middle-to-bottom among the scores he's put out since the last time he won an Oscar, and that would feel kind of odd.

I strongly disagree.

John Williams' farts are better music than Ludwig Göransson's scores.

 

[Thor 7,508]

My rundown of the nominees:

 

AMERICAN FICTION -- has some interesting jazz bits, but also bits that wander too far off into experimental landscapes to be properly engrossing. It's not bad or anything, but not terribly interesting either. Lots of noodling that goes nowhere fast. A far, far superior jazz score from 2023 was RUSTIN (Marsalis), which came in at 7th place in my own list.

 

KILLERS OF THE FLOWER MOON -- as said elsewhere, its main quality lies in the spotting here. Also, that opening montage sequence is brilliant. But in and of itself - as a musical composition - it isn't that interesting. Especially not on album. Twangy country stuff. I'd be willing to condone it winning if just as a tribute to the late Robertson.

 

POOR THINGS -- still haven't seen the film (I haven't liked anything Lanthimos has done, outside his debut DOGTOOTH, but I need to see it soon nonetheless). The album is just too weird for my taste, even if I like some weirdness now and then. I'm struggling with grasping on to structures and textures that interest me.

 

OPPENHEIMER -- I hated the film, but much to my surprise there were bits in Göransson's score I liked (surprising, because he is one of my "Unholy Three" that I generally dislike). Of course, these bits are buried deep, deep down in the excessive soundtrack presentation, but at some point I might attempt a playlist. Interestingly, the music was sometimes on equal footing with the endless dialogue in the film, which is quite rare. By no means a favourite of the year, but not bereft of value.

 

INDIANA JONES AND THE DIAL OF DESTINY -- the film was okay, even if it betrayed a lot of the Indy recipe, as I point out in my review of the film. Williams' score was pretty much as expected - subscribing to the same cellular, motivic style that has been his calling card since the last Indy film. So quite all-over-the-place and not a favourite in the composer's oeuvre. But -- in this company -- it's still the most rewarding score, both in the film and outside. Came in 13th on my top list of the year.

 

In short, with the exception of INDY, none of these were even close to being on my own top list, or even runner-up list of the year.

 

If I had been an Academy Award dictator, I would have nominated these five scores -- my top 5 of 2023, as I say in my podcast episode on 2023:

 

TROPIC - SebastiAn

THE CREATOR - Hans Zimmer

DER FUCHS - Arash Safaian

CARMEN - Nicholas Britell

SIMPLE COMME SYLVAIN - Forever Pavot

 

I don't know the rules on non-US scores being eligible, but I think they are? LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL, IL POSTINO and all that....

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

50 minutes ago, Thor said:

I don't know the rules on non-US scores being eligible, but I think they are? LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL, IL POSTINO and all that....

And Pan's Labyrinth

[GerateWohl 4,370]

51 minutes ago, Thor said:

LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL, IL POSTINO and all that....

...and ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

9 hours ago, Tom said:

I will admit a simple bias: I think Williams has suffered an injustice (yes, there are bigger injustices in the world, but an injustice nonetheless) with many, many of his past loses.  So, on any given year, including this year, I think Williams deserves to win to somehow balance out the past issues.  The completely rational part of my mind recognizes this as problematic, but here we are.

 

I acknowledge that there are flaws on both sides of this debate, certainly mine, i.e. yes, scores are judged against that year's crop, and if it's decided by the masses that Williams wrote the best score, fair enough.

 

Funny thing is, purely amongst these nominees, I do think Williams is easily the best, but I think that's more about how bizarre this selection of scores is, based on the films, and not purely based on music, where there is more interesting material in films that don't get attention. It feels uneasy to me that the automatic vibe of JWFan is that if Williams writes a score, it should be nominated, as it's based on a (IMO highly misguided) view that he outwites every other composer, all the time. I find Thor's 'best of' rather refreshing actually- recognising musical brilliance outside our bubble.

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

I think 'Oppenheimer' will take Best Picture, and since it's usual for the Best Picture winner to sweep the Oscars, it'll probably take Best Score.

[Edmilson 7,466]

Yep, this year's Oscars is Göransson's to lose, and it wouldn't be entirely undeserving IMHO. If it's not him than I bet on Jerskyn Fendrix. 

 

JW's shots are rather minuscule though.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

On 26/1/2024 at 5:08 AM, Richard Penna said:

It feels uneasy to me that the automatic vibe of JWFan is that if Williams writes a score, it should be nominated, as it's based on a (IMO highly misguided) view that he outwites every other composer, all the time.

 

It is LITERALLY true. Literally. I mean JW writes on another planet. Which of these modern composers can write scores with the elaborate scale, scope, density, orchestration and complexity of even a mid tier Williams score? 

 

There it of course subjectivity involved but Williams writes music orders of magnitude more sophisticated than your regular 21st century film composer.

[crumbs 14,317]

Williams didn't even get an Oscar nomination for Hook, one of the best scores he ever wrote and one of the best film scores even written!

 

Yeah, he was nominated for JFK instead (and best original song for When You're Alone) but it's still a dumbfounding omission when you look back on his career.

 

So for anyone befuddled by the DoD nomination, just consider it righting past wrongs

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

On 26/1/2024 at 5:08 AM, Richard Penna said:

It feels uneasy to me that the automatic vibe of JWFan is that if Williams writes a score, it should be nominated win, as it's based on a (IMO highly misguided) view that he outwites every other composer, all the time.

Fixed.

 

It's hard to ignore Williams come awards season, hence his 54 nominations. But while his score for DoD may outshine others for technical brilliance, that shouldn't be the only criteria for winning.

 

If I also look at how the music enhances the overall movie experience, it falls a little short for me and feels underwhelming... (Heresy, I know.)

 

My most recent experience with a score that really stood out was with 'Godzilla Minus One', which unfortunately (to my ears) didn't get a nom. From a strictly compositional standpoint, you can rightly argue it doesn't hold a candle to Williams and is on the technically "simple" side, but it still packs a wallop.

 

I'll paraphrase Bernard Herrmann who said that the paradox of film music is that music of "lower" quality can be as effective (or even more so, I'd argue) than music of higher quality when judged in the context of the film.

[crumbs 14,317]

8 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

 

My most recent experience with a score that really stood out was with 'Godzilla Minus One', which unfortunately (to my ears) didn't get a nom. From a strictly compositional standpoint, you can rightly argue it doesn't hold a candle to Williams and is on the technically "simple" side, but it still packs a wallop.

 

I really liked that score as well, but I think it runs afoul of the Academy pre-existing material rule.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

18 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

My most recent experience with a score that really stood out was with 'Godzilla Minus One', which unfortunately (to my ears) didn't get a nom. From a strictly compositional standpoint, you can rightly argue it doesn't hold a candle to Williams and is on the technically "simple" side, but it still packs a wallop.

 

If a score works well on its own terms despite apparent simplicity, why the need for a direct comparison with Williams? After all, as suggested above, compositional complexity is one of many elements that make a score effective. I'm so thankful that some of our appreciation threads discussing career-defining works by other composers are largely free of this - admiring a score on what that composer brings to the table.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

Yes Godzilla Minus One doesn't have enough new material I think. They did not even campaign it I believe. 

[rpvee 805]

Alas, Oppenheimer won. Don’t think Williams is even there - they didn’t do a split screen of all the nominees, and when someone who won earlier shouted out Williams as an inspiration, they never showed him for one of those classic “reaction shots”.

[Edmilson 7,466]

Also, the audience gave a huge applause to all the nominees, except for Williams. They announced his name and the audience barely clapped. 

[mrbellamy 6,287]

Probably just the side effect of Dial of Destiny looking underwhelming with four Best Picture nominees 

[Jay 37,369]

Yeah good point

[Edmilson 7,466]

Yeah. But from what I could gather, the response from regular movie fans who don't usually care about film scores is that they weren't fans of JW's music from DoD. Way too orchestral and traditional for them.

[rpvee 805]

In honor of Schindler’s List turning 30, the orchestra played the main theme as Spielberg came out to hand out Best Director.

 

Awkwardly, or perhaps a bit fittingly, it was directly after Cillian Murphy won Best Actor for his performance in another WW2 drama.

[mrbellamy 6,287]

6 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Yeah. But from what I could gather, the response from regular movie fans who don't usually care about film scores is that they weren't fans of JW's music from DoD. Way too orchestral and traditional for them.

 

I really don't think the fact that it was orchestral and traditional was what people found meh about DoD. 

[Fabulin 3,514]

To be fair, even Raiders (film and score) would have lost again, were it the contender.

[Edmilson 7,466]

Sad but true.

[Fabulin 3,514]

Had Williams scored Oppenheimer, he would have won. 

[Tom 4,664]

36 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

Probably just the side effect of Dial of Destiny looking underwhelming with four Best Picture nominees 

Really?  I would say it is the same reason that he has not won since 1993.