Popular Post Lewya 360 Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 In his new biography Ennio Morricone: In His Own Words, Ennio Morricone is complimentary but critical of John Williams - Star Wars scores in particular. "My criticism was not directed to Star Wars in particular, which I enjoyed a lot from the very beginning of the saga, but the scoring style which (especially Hollywood) composers and directors have made us used to. I attempted a new direction with my score for The Humanoid by Aldo Lado, in which I devised a six-voice double fugue based on tonal harmony (the six voices were split in half between the orchestra and the organ, with a double subject and a double countersubject). The piece was titled "Incontro a sei" (Six-Faced Encounter): The work was grueling, but very stimulating at the same time. Although the production could not remotely compete with Star Wars, to me this piece seemed to somewhat mirrror the imaginary of the universe, the infinite spaces and the sky, without giving in to clichés. Obviously, such experiments were self-imposed necessities, rather than obligatory pathways. Still, speaking both as a composer and a filmgoer, I believe that a rather simplistic standardization of stylistic choices has made film music less interesting over the years, in terms of both conceptional depth and compositional methods." Morricone said that Williams is “an exceptionally gifted composer whom I greatly respect”, but even he is criticised for making “a commercial choice” about the space epic franchise. It was, he says, “understandable, but still commercial. I could not have scored Star Wars in that way”. He adds: “What seems hazardous to me is to associate a march, no matter how well written, to outer space. Oftentimes, solutions of this sort stem not so much from the lack of creativity or skills, but from mere commercial concerns – as consequences of the rules imposed by the film industry … Speaking both as a composer and a filmgoer, I believe that a rather simplistic standardisation of stylistic choices has made film music less interesting over the years, in terms of both conceptual depth and compositional methods.” SteveMc, The Five Tones, The Illustrious Jerry and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SteveMc 2,674 Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 I believe Morricone has a point. New artistic ground must be broken. But, I think he errs when he thinks that Williams's musical direction for the first Star Wars was "commercial." Orchestral film scores, for one thing, were not very much in vogue at the time. For another thing, the choice to use a march is the artistically appropriate choice. Lucas wrote and filmed the movie based on mythological callbacks, a la Joseph Campbell. He even set it, despite the sci-fi trappings, in a distant past. Using music that calls to mind a sort of familiar heroism is just the right musical approach to match this filmmaking approach. For later Star Wars efforts, perhaps Williams could have attempted to get more daring, but, then, the movies themselves did not go in this direction. Ludwig, Will, crlbrg and 10 others 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,344 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 First he hates Tarantino, now John Williams! This man's a beast and he must be stopped! apples 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,660 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 He adds: “What seems hazardous to me is to associate a march, no matter how well written, to outer space." Yet, billions of people do not find it hazardous in any way, but, I am sure you are right and they are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 He has a point of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 It's a stolen march anyway. Kasey Kockroach 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SteveMc 2,674 Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 11 minutes ago, Tom said: He adds: “What seems hazardous to me is to associate a march, no matter how well written, to outer space." How is a six voice double fugue (magnificent, by the way) any different? Marcus, Falstaft and crlbrg 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post #SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 One could argue that using established classical music stylings in a sci-fi movie is a rather regressive choice to make. Star Wars isn't proper sci-fi though. Its a space fairy tale. SteveMc, Will, The Illustrious Jerry and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewya 360 Posted February 24, 2019 Author Share Posted February 24, 2019 https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/feb/23/ennio-morricone-composer-film-makers-directors-cliches-music I think it's interesting that Morricone implies John Williams *is* talented but has happily turned out commercial dross for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,344 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 John Williams should be fired! apples 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 13 minutes ago, Lewya said: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/feb/23/ennio-morricone-composer-film-makers-directors-cliches-music I think it's interesting that Morricone implies John Williams *is* talented but has happily turned out commercial dross for years. Star Wars, Spielberg, Harry Potter etc etc. You think Ennio is wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crumbs 14,317 Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 John Williams is the least of the film score industry's issues, to put it lightly. rough cut, SteveMc, Fancyarcher and 10 others 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 That's not what Morricone was saying though. Not Mr. Big 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Star Wars with any other score wouldn't have worked..period. Certainly not with that six double voice fugue whatever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bryant Burnette 654 Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 In a hundred years, nobody is going to know who Ennio Morricone is. In a hundred years, John Williams will still be performed regularly. Joni Wiljami, Fabulin, Kostov and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Oh come on. Not Mr. Big and SteveMc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,526 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 I call bullshit on that first sentence. crlbrg and SteveMc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Its incredible bullshit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 It's funny that Morricone thinks Williams has become a commercial sell-out, but every time I hear or read what Williams has to say about his own music for Star Wars is an honest artist applying his music to commercial films. It's not high art. Morricone can have every which way he wants about how he would score a space film, but you can't tell me the marches Williams wrote aren't powerfully suited to the films they're written for. Personally that fugue linked above doesn't conjure imagery of space at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,337 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Morricone has been critical of the symphonic approach ever since Star Wars came out. Maybe he was jealous because Star Wars broke all record sales, or maybe he just doesn't like symphonic music as film music, as it could be seen as a step backwards. Film music should be its own thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Symphonic music belongs in the concert hall. It's too distracting and out of place in modern dark and disturbing cinema. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 11 minutes ago, Alexcremers said: Film music should be its own thing. That is something Zimmer understood very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Score 770 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 6 hours ago, Lewya said: In his new biography Ennio Morricone: In His Own Words, Ennio Morricone is complimentary but critical of John Williams - Star Wars scores in particular. "My criticism was not directed to Star Wars in particular, which I enjoyed a lot from the very beginning of the saga, but the scoring style which (especially Hollywood) composers and directors have made us used to. I attempted a new direction with my score for The Humanoid by Aldo Lado, in which I devised a six-voice double fugue based on tonal harmony (the six voices were split in half between the orchestra and the organ, with a double subject and a double countersubject). The piece was titled "Incontro a sei" (Six-Faced Encounter): The work was grueling, but very stimulating at the same time. Although the production could not remotely compete with Star Wars, to me this piece seemed to somewhat mirrror the imaginary of the universe, the infinite spaces and the sky, without giving in to clichés. Obviously, such experiments were self-imposed necessities, rather than obligatory pathways. Still, speaking both as a composer and a filmgoer, I believe that a rather simplistic standardization of stylistic choices has made film music less interesting over the years, in terms of both conceptional depth and compositional methods." Morricone said that Williams is “an exceptionally gifted composer whom I greatly respect”, but even he is criticised for making “a commercial choice” about the space epic franchise. It was, he says, “understandable, but still commercial. I could not have scored Star Wars in that way”. He adds: “What seems hazardous to me is to associate a march, no matter how well written, to outer space. Oftentimes, solutions of this sort stem not so much from the lack of creativity or skills, but from mere commercial concerns – as consequences of the rules imposed by the film industry … Speaking both as a composer and a filmgoer, I believe that a rather simplistic standardisation of stylistic choices has made film music less interesting over the years, in terms of both conceptual depth and compositional methods.” This is not a new statement from Morricone, although it was maybe published in an English translation just now. He said this in an Italian book about his approach to film music that was published in 2001. I think we have talked about that here, years ago. He was debating about that during a conversation with Sergio Miceli, a musicologist (who sadly passed away a few years ago) and a collaborator of his. Miceli answered by saying that Star Wars is not really about the mysteries and vastness of space, but more about a sort of romantic opera staged in space, so in his opinion the romantic approach pursued by Williams is more appropriate to the topic, rather than the more abstract approach as Morricone was hoping for (a fugue etc.). I see what Morricone means, but I completely agree with Miceli's point of view about Star Wars. Just to say that this statement is an old one, which came much earlier than more recent statements, and the meeting at the Oscar celebration for Hateful Eight. Recently (probably also to soften the message that could have been associated with that interview), he has made clear that he has great respect for Williams, and he considers him an outstanding musician. 3 hours ago, SteveMc said: How is a six voice double fugue (magnificent, by the way) any different? There is a general idea (that I don't share at all) among many composers that a fugue (or, more generally, any form of rigorous counterpoint) is "more difficult" to write, therefore less "commercial" and more "serious", than a romantic piece. I think Morricone has that feeling, its consequences turn out quite often in his production. aviazn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,483 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Well, that's why Morricone is Morricone... and Williams is Williams. Bayesian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 2,835 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 I hope when JW gets to 90 he decides he has no f***s to give anymore and starts calling out people. I guess Ennio does have a point, but every film composer is going to approach a film in a different way. I doubt JW was thinking about the commercial potential of his music for Star Wars when he wrote it. He actually thought Star Wars was more of a B movie that people would quickly forget about. I think it frustrates Ennio that he’s written some really great stuff but I don’t think he’s ever got the credit he deserves. His finally got his Oscar at 87! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 I think Ennio stopped giving a shit about Hollywood a long time ago when he found out studios were paying him less then other "big" name composers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ludwig 1,120 Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 I think basically what Ennio's saying is that he disagrees with the choice to use an established style of score ("standardisation of stylistic choices") for such a prominent movie (this is probably what he means about it being "commerical"). He's also probably viewing Star Wars through a personal rather than historical lens, meaning that he personally remembers the classical-Hollywood-style score being popular in films of the 30s and 40s and so regards it as a nothing new even though, as @SteveMc points out, that kind of score really wasn't in vogue at the time. So essentially he doesn't like the stylistic choice because he feels it impinges on a film composer's desire for innovation. Fair enough. Personally, I feel that when people criticize Star Wars, it's for its old-Hollywood orchestration and the late-Romantic harmonic leanings. Funny thing is, there's actually a lot of modernism in Star Wars that is somehow never mentioned despite its very prominent role, e.g., Luke's theme and the use of "quartal harmony", the Stormtrooper chords and their use of "bristling" notes that don't agree with the rest of the chord, or the use of polytonality by having the bass disagree with the chord above it. But it's also probably worth mentioning that Morricone regards tone colour as one of a film composer's greatest resources, and of course this is one of his own greatest achievements. So he probably hears old-Hollywood orchestral scoring as more backward-looking than other composers might even if it includes significant modern qualities in the realm of harmony. aviazn, Brundlefly, crumbs and 8 others 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post WilliamsGirl 8 Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 8 hours ago, SteveMc said: How is a six voice double fugue (magnificent, by the way) any different? A fugue is a form, whereas a march is a style. Bayesian, Jurassic Shark, SteveMc and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,483 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Between a March in Space and a woman singing great "Wooo-oooo-ooooo"s in the Far West... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 You don't like Ennio? Aznavour never worked with him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 8 hours ago, Stefancos said: Star Wars isn't proper sci-fi though. Its a space fairy tale. Exactly, and Williams scores it as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,483 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, Stefancos said: You don't like Ennio? Aznavour never worked with him? Yes he arranged some of his songs. Another prof that before his 40's, Morricone was still doing "really" anything to put butter on his pastas. Now he sounds like an old senile frustrated man. Sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 This is really quite mild criticism, coming from Morricone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 A trifle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 11 hours ago, Lewya said: What seems hazardous to me is to associate a march, no matter how well written, to outer space Ennio, it's Star Wars. redishere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 You think the people of other worlds play marches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,513 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 There is no music in space. Only eerie silence. Even a fugue is already a projection of humanity where there is none. Morricone is worth over $ 20 million. He could have proven the world quite some time ago that he could (it is implied) do the same things Williams does and only doesn't "because it is inappropriate". Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 I guess it's below him to even recognize Hanz' existence. As it should be! TheUlyssesian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,533 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Since Sen. Morricone was not involved in the making of STAR WARS, in any way, he has no "point", whatsoever. What he does have, is an opinion, which he is welcome to voice, anytime he wishes. The decision to create a "classical" score for STAR WARS, was definitely not a commercial one. In 1976/77, orchestral scores (with few exceptions) were out of fashion. Lucas could have chosen something electronic (a la LOGAN'S RUN) or something avant garde (a la DEMON SEED). He didn't. He went with his instincts, which was to use an orchestral score to "ground" the film, thus offering an semblance of authenticity, and providing a nexus between what was seen, and what was perceived. The decision to use the (arguably) greatest orchestra of the day (and in the UK, no less) was, also not commercial. Neither was the decision to release a 2-LP set, with the original score, at the risk of incurring massive repeat fees. It should be noted that Sen. Morricone also redefined film music, in the 1960s, with a style that, although meeting with some opposition, netted him handsome returns, both artistically, and financially. I have an idea: let Sen. Morricone rescore STAR WARS, as he would have, in 1977. The film can then be rereleased alongside a version with the JW score - a score which is often cited, by critics, and public alike as THE GREATEST EVER WRITTEN - then let the public decide which version it prefers. Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 Morricone: *says something slightly critical of John Williams* JWFan: Naïve Old Fart, Fabulin, The Illustrious Jerry and 2 others 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,483 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Vecchietto frustrato! redishere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Fabulin 3,513 Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 44 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: I guess it's below him to even recognize Hanz' existence. As it should be! crlbrg, Bespin, crumbs and 4 others 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Score 770 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Ludwig said: But it's also probably worth mentioning that Morricone regards tone colour as one of a film composer's greatest resources, and of course this is one of his own greatest achievements. So he probably hears old-Hollywood orchestral scoring as more backward-looking than other composers might even if it includes significant modern qualities in the realm of harmony. Honestly, I do not believe that most of the people who criticize the SW score have ever heard the whole thing separated from the movie (i.e., I don't see Morricone going to buy the 1997 complete release of the SW score and listening to it, though I'd be happy to be proven wrong), and if they express their opinion based solely on the movie's viewing, they might simply not have noticed all the subtleties of the music. Even whole cues might escape attention during the movie's viewing. As you say, harmony-wise it is very modern, surely more modern than most of the pieces for which Morricone is famous. I mean, a score like "Once Upon a Time in America", which is very beautiful for sure, is much more "commercial" and risk-free than any of the Star Wars scores. Joni Wiljami 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Ludwig said: Funny thing is, there's actually a lot of modernism in Star Wars that is somehow never mentioned despite its very prominent role, e.g., Luke's theme and the use of "quartal harmony", the Stormtrooper chords and their use of "bristling" notes that don't agree with the rest of the chord, or the use of polytonality by having the bass disagree with the chord above it. That is funny. Have you by any chance elaborated on these aspects on your website? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 I mean, Morricone's observation is true as far as it goes, but judging by that statement it appears that his opinion of Williams rests largely on a single score or two (and probably only one or two cues from them). I hope that this quote was taken a little out of context, since it would be unfortunate for someone of Morricone's statute to fall into the common trap of treating Williams as a one-dimensional march-writer (although even in that aspect I think there's a lot to admire about JW's writing). Fabulin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Nick Parker 3,040 Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 I've said for years that for all its hoopla about "bringing back the Golden Age scoring", Star Wars is a score that could have only been written in the 70's. As a more general response to the topic, Star Wars--particularly Williams' score--has always been a tricky subject to discuss. Its massive popularity has always guaranteed that there would be suspicion from other musicians, particularly those who saw themselves as either more "serious" or "on the edge". Depending on who you talk to, the score is either held as a poster for the creative bankruptcy and thievery of "Hollywood", or a retro populist gumball designed to be easily chewed by as many saps in the world as possible. Just the other week, I was talking with one of those self-appointed Guardians of the Classical Orchestra who said he could never be a film composer because he would have to write so much music that he would have to steal like John Williams did for Star Wars, which is obviously just a blatant ripoff of Holst. (I was able to respond more diplomatically, but my emotional response was something more akin to "How many 5 min YouTube videos did you have to watch to come up with that daring conclusion, you ignorant-ass douche?" The dude even had _THE_ accent, you know the one I mean!) And then you have musicians such as Morricone and Frank Zappa, who once said, "[Star Wars music] is fine...for Star Wars-type consumption", the implications being very clear. (Aside: Djuh'all know Zappa was in the running to originally score Star Wars?) These musicians, as we've been saying, have more of a point, especially when seen from a personal viewpoint. But as fans we know the score, we've listened to--not just heard, as in the case of my DoucheMaster General associate and his ilk-- the music. We know the score was crafted as a desire to ground the faraway setting as a "fairy tale", as has been so succinctly stated above. We know that the leanings from the likes of Holst, Stravinsky, etc. represent not the whole of the score, and is far from being there as a sign of laziness or cynical graverobbing. We know that through all of the hype, all the medals and curses the score--and John Williams--has been given for 40 years by countless groups of people as heralding this or reviving that, Star Wars is a unique entity, one both of its time and beyond, the result of a talented, skilled composer deeply steeped in American and European traditions, with decades of experience honing his skills, a consummate professional humbly writing scores and giving his all for films that mostly have been forgotten...the fate that Williams predicted for this Star Wars popcorn movie, that didn't stop him from working six-day weeks to deliver the best damn score he could. At the end of the day, Star Wars was a film score, and it could have only been written by Williams. SteveMc, Joni Wiljami, Bayesian and 8 others 9 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Really, Morricone seems to me to be more critical of Star Wars as a film series and a cultural phenomenon. His issue with the scores seem to be that they're attached to that product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Well without a doubt Star Wars is intellectually redundant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, Chen G. said: Really, Morricone seems to me to be more critical of Star Wars as a film series and a cultural phenomenon. His issue with the scores seem to be that they're attached to that product. Right, perhaps I didn't state as clearly as I intended, but I was saying that some see it more as a symbol rather than an entity judged on its own merits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Star Wars is symptomatic of the decline of Western civilization. apples 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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