Oomoog the Ecstatic 314 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 In an October survey conducted by the BBC, with responses from top composers such as John Williams, Steve Reich, John Adams, Eric Whitacre, Danny Elfman, John Corigliano, Michael Nyman, Carl Jenkins, Gabriel Yared, and 165 other major living composers today, John Williams tied Schumann and Rachmaninoff for 50th place in the Greatest Composers of all Time, surpassing many of the biggest icons in music history. Each participant was required to vote for the 5 best in history, and the results were totalled and ranked. Williams didn't vote for himself of course, but voted for Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Haydn, and Mozart. Someone posted about this survey earlier today, but the headline was only about Williams's picks. Not quite proper for this forum: Williams surpassed many of the greatest names in perhaps the biggest modern professional survey on Classical ever done, something for the books! All top 50 composers were written about in the article by some of the composers who specifically selected them. It is a magnificent article to read and absorb. Here are the Top ranked 50 as posted in the BBC article: 1. Bach2. Stravinsky3. Beethoven4. Mozart5. Debussy6. Ligeti7. Mahler8. Wagner9. Ravel10. Monteverdi11. Britten12. Sibelius13. Messiaen14. Bartók15. Shostakovich16. Haydn17. Saariaho18. Brahms19. Reich20. Chopin21. Vaughan Williams22. Schoenberg23. Gesualdo24. Janáček25. Schubert26. Gershwin27. Glass28. Ives29. Prokofiev30. Lutoslawski31. Cage32. Tchaikovsky33. Berg34. Feldman35. Varèse36. Webern37. Byrd38. R.Strauss39. Verdi40. Elgar41. Birtwistle42. Knussen43. Sondheim44. Stockhausen45. Satie46. Tallis47. Hildegard von Bingen ________________ Each receiving the same number of votes: 48. Boulez49. Schumann50. Rachmaninov 51. John Williams Interchangeable rank _______________ Congrats Maestro, on making the Top 50! An article on the BBC Survey in Dec 2019's Magazine: http://www.classical-music.com/news/js-bach-greatest-composer-all-time-say-today-s-leading-composers-bbc-music-magazine Dec 2019 BBC Issue with full article purchasable here: https://www.zinio.com/gb/bbc-music-magazine-m2404 Remco and mrbellamy 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,512 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 . Oomoog the Ecstatic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oomoog the Ecstatic 314 Posted November 4, 2019 Author Share Posted November 4, 2019 Please refrain from posting any more article content, due to respect to these composers like Williams as well as BBC for designing this massive survey (and I'm sure it would break some kind of forum etiquette / rules.) You can access the article in the above link and verify for yourself. It's loaded with every detail you desire. Thanks! 1 hour ago, Modest Expectations said: screenshot pls? I need to post it in the "John Williams: worthy addition to canon or charlatan" on Talk Classical Talk Classical is a little old-fashioned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 Pfft, paywall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Borodin said: Williams didn't vote for himself of course, but voted for Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Haydn, and Mozart. Boring choices... Nice to see Stravinsky, Bartók and Sibelius in the Top15! Joni Wiljami 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamsStarShip2282 308 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 I think the order in which they put them is nonsense. If judging by most popular or beloved (or as you like), how can Saariaho even break the top 50, not even mentioning she was put ahead of Gershwin. Including John Cage (can anyone actually name anything other than 4'33 and maybe his prepared piano concept) Morton Feldman, and the most surprising Charles Ives (who I love dearly with all my heart), but hardly anyone even knows who he is. If you really wanted to measure a composer by how "great" they are, their accomplishments and impact to the history of music, and legacy of their field should be the starting point. Therefore making (really hard to say in what order, probably not possible given a historical context)- John Williams, Pierre Boulez, Olivier Messiaen, Claude Debussy, L.V. Beethoven, Arnold Schoenberg, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Philip Glass, J.S. Bach (although a genius beyond measure, his music was hardly known at all until Mendelssohn brought him back, and even in his time he was considered kind of a weirdo at times- so not so sure he can be considered either). * Mozart and Haydn have been left of the list because their legacy was -seemingly- shattered by Beethoven- whom everyone copied for a great long time, however, all Beethoven really did was super stretch the boundaries of the "classical" period music, similar to Stravinsky in his time. Now there are certain composers that were influential to some but not all : like Tchaikovsky to Stravinsky ( the Firebird really at moments sounds quite like the Nutcracker, which, in the entire Nutcracker ballet, the "non-famous" parts, often sound very very much, and even at times just taken directly, from Beethoven's 7th Symphony), and not sure I could say, but perhaps his big sweeping melodies influenced the Golden Age film composers. But this is not as easily documented. Perhaps most people would not agree, but again its based on contribution. Olivier Messiaen influenced countless composers in his classroom, just as a very start. Stockhausen basically created "noise music", and furthered the boundaries of what could be done with electronic music (which can be seen still today which of course has genre crossed for the technique, not the music style itself), Schoenberg/ Boulez (although unintentionally for Boulez) created armies of disciples who continued writing in 12 tone/ serial fashion- Boulez taking it further with also his, in a different way, contributions to the electronic music field (with the hard work of the great fellows at IRCAM), Philip Glass also spurred a movement of composers, who didn't exactly steal his style directly, but the principle and harmonic progressions for sure (listen to the slow movement of his Tirol concerto, and don't tell me Hans Zimmer stole that and used it over and over again), Debussy (need I say it? how many times have you heard a composer say they were inspired by him- probably most of the people on that list, and then how many poor imitations or rip-offs of his music?). And last of course, John Williams, who need no explanation, who I think in 100 years or less, be the hands down winner of the most influential of all time. So finally, I think the BBC list just seems very random to me, without any kind of purpose at all. If people are going to make a list based on glib thoughts, and ignorance of a composers hard work and contributions (or there lack of) to their craft, then they shouldn't be making a list at all.......take THAT people who voted for Brexit! (PS- The Sherman Brothers and Alan Menkan were not even listen, and they had a huge impact on the musical scene too, not to mention Andrew Lloyd Webber) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Cerebral Cortex 3,357 Posted November 5, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 5, 2019 It's neat that we're starting to be able to see and appreciate how history will remember Williams. Fabulin, Oomoog the Ecstatic, SingeMoisi and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 No Copland Will and Sharkissimo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0llux 398 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 Bad list. Our lord and savior should be #1. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrbellamy 6,287 Posted November 5, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 5, 2019 He should be all 50. And a four way tie with himself for #1. Cerebral Cortex, Will, Disco Stu and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post p0llux 398 Posted November 5, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 5, 2019 i like our profile pics. mrbellamy, Taikomochi, The Illustrious Jerry and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Disco Stu 15,495 Posted November 5, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 5, 2019 Honestly all those other composers should be thanking Williams for making their music better when he stole it for his scores Ricard, Kasey Kockroach and Gruesome Son of a Bitch 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Disco Stu said: No Copland Or Barber. Or Bruckner. Or Corigliano... rough cut and WilliamsStarShip2282 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 Nor Adams himself. But Birtwistle? Gesualdo? Sondheim? Knussen? Go figure. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 Aren't these top 50 lists just the same thing every year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oomoog the Ecstatic 314 Posted November 5, 2019 Author Share Posted November 5, 2019 Just fyi there are a few unmentioned composers who have the same amount of votes as Williams. 50th is just a placement approximation because no one composer could be higher than another if they have the same number of votes. Just want to give you girls the right info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 Glad to see Reich on there, but no Adams?! As @Dixon Hill seems to suggest, that exclusion is wildly unwarranted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,043 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 5 hours ago, Brundlefly said: Boring choices... Nice to see Stravinsky, Bartók and Sibelius in the Top15! Yeah, not so sure about some of the choices for this list, but I'm digging the respect for those fellas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 2 hours ago, Dixon Hill said: Nor Adams himself. But Birtwistle? Gesualdo? Sondheim? Knussen? Go figure. These sorts of things love to form arbitrary barriers that become less and less justifiable with every question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 11 hours ago, Borodin said: 51. John Williams Interchangeable Well, a lot of his stuff is. Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 12 hours ago, Dixon Hill said: Nor Adams himself. But Birtwistle? Gesualdo? Sondheim? Knussen? Go figure. Seeing this is a BBC poll and a good portion of the 165 other respondents are likely British, you have to expect a slight dash of post-war parochialism. I admire Birtwhistle and Knussen, but Sir Max's omission here is curious WilliamsStarShip2282 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 57 minutes ago, Boom Tss said: Seeing this is a BBC poll and a good portion of the 165 other respondents are likely British, you have to expect a slight dash of post-war parochialism. I admire Birtwhistle and Knussen, but Sir Max's omission here is curious Sondheim, though? SONDHEIM!?!? What's the excuse there!? WilliamsStarShip2282 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 18 hours ago, Disco Stu said: No Copland No Bruckner either. Disco Stu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,348 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 EXCUSE ME? GLASS BEFORE JW??? Yeah, right. Tydirium and WilliamsStarShip2282 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 Wait, Richard Strauss is 38?! and no Korngold? But Montiverdi is 10th? O.o ok then.......... I'm not sure what constitutes best, I just always go with who my favorites are, and that list would be so different for me. I think any art is so subjective though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco 685 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 Nobody knows Korngold - while they should! But frankly I think it’s understandable he’s not on the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,512 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 I'm so happy that in the last 10 years his violin concerto is becoming one of the concerto's to play. It's gorgeous! Will and Remco 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 17 hours ago, Will said: Glad to see Reich on there Why is Reich only Nineteenth instead of, well, you know, Third? The Five Tones 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 Who needs these lists? Ricard and WilliamsStarShip2282 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 I thought he'd score much higher well for his film scores that is, for his concert pieces seems about right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 Where are Goldsmith and Horner? This is pure Kafka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 On 11/6/2019 at 1:17 AM, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said: Where are Goldsmith and Horner? This is pure Kafka. Goldsmith is someone who really deserves a place between these classic composers, but some people would probably think it's not authentic to include someone who's known for so many experiments with synthetic sound and always connected to the bad movies he was involved in. Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oomoog the Ecstatic 314 Posted November 7, 2019 Author Share Posted November 7, 2019 You guys are listing all these composers, but missing the first obvious fault! Beethoven is under Bach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 I was thinking the same. He's also under Stravinsky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Rachnaninov was undoubtedly great, but John Williams is great... in a different way. It's like saying Beethoven was great... And so is Danny Elfman. ocelot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted November 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 7, 2019 Elfman isn't great though. He's done some very good stuff, but he's more often mediocre than not. ocelot, SingeMoisi and Fabulin 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,512 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,504 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said: Elfman isn't great though. He's done some very good stuff, but he's more often mediocre than not. In big action blockbusters these days, perhaps. But outside that, an impressive brilliant consistency. But obviously, he should have no place on a list like this. Nor should Williams, for that matter. Let's keep things in perspective here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Just now, Thor said: In big action blockbusters these days, perhaps. But outside that, an impressive brilliant consistency. My bad - I totally forgot about his 50 Shades magnum opus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,504 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 14 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: My bad - I totally forgot about his 50 Shades magnum opus! Nah, forget that. But rather THE KINGDOM, MILK, STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE, TAKING WOODSTOCK, RESTLESS, PROMISED LAND, THE UNKNOWN KNOWN, THE CIRCLE....that kind of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,512 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 JW has written too many complete scores to qualify! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,512 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,504 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Modest Expectations said: So when Dudamel introduced him at a concert in comparison with Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Mahler, and Shostakovich, he must have been really high , right? I can totally understand Dudamel's reasoning. What is yours? Well, everyone is allowed to have an opinion. Williams would tower at the very top of my own list too, but not necessarily on top of a 'greatest' list, which has more of an 'objective' air to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,512 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 . Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,504 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 I don't understand your post, really. When you do a list with the words 'greatest' or 'best', it will always have a more objective air than 'favourite' -- I say 'objective air' because lists will always have a degree of subjectivity involved, of course. In other words, my (or Gustavo Dudamel's) list of favourites would look considerably different than if I were challenged to make a list of 'best' or 'greatest' or 'most influential' or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 11 hours ago, Modest Expectations said: My observation is that in oder to secure a place in the top... let's say 100 of the classical pantheon, a composer typically needs to extend the existing tradition in some way. It can be through impressive discoveries within the current paradigm, or through contributing to a shift to a new one. Given composer's music needs to be superior in some ways to that of the other composers. The competition for this type of fame is very brutal. Did Goldsmith really manage to do it to a larger extent than the established classical fames? Especially him, yes. More than Williams and more than several obligatory choices on the list. But in the end, this is really a pretty decent list! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Porkins 53 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 How the hell is Tchaikovsky way down at #32? Josh500 and SingeMoisi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco 685 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Quite some classical musicians look down on Tchai quite a bit. I’m surprised he’s so high on the list actually! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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