Popular Post Alex 2,835 Posted January 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 28, 2021 Interesting thread on Twitter by Joe Kramer explaining the state of film scoring right now. "This is a sad truth for everyone trying to make it in show business - it is virtually impossible for people who are neither born into money or born into the business. And it IS a business - money is the bottom line. As one very successful producer recently told me "Joe, no one gives a shit about your art". I can count the number of mainstream Hollywood composers that I KNOW write all their music themselves on one hand, John Williams being the most famous example. Everyone else is a team leader, a figurehead for a team of composers who are getting no credit, very little money, and no job security. None of us have any job security anyway. One of my closest friends made a deal behind my back that swindled me out of hundreds of thousands of dollars and then dumped me for a Zimling and this was after assuring me that working for him/her was the same as having a "savings bond". In 2010, having scored "The Way of The Gun" and close to 40 TV movies for the Hallmark Channel, I was so broke I had to sell my CDs and DVDs to feed my son. This is not a pity-party for me. This is just a reality check for people who dream of scoring movies in Hollywood: It is a cutthroat community of people who are in the business to get rich and famous. Writing music of any quality is secondary to that ultimate goal. And keep in mind, being an artist is not a civil right - no one owes me anything, even the ex-friend who swindled me. Making art is a hobby, and if we can manage to make some money from it, so much the better. I promise to always do my best to write all the music in anything I score myself, and if I don't, to properly credit the people who co-write with me (i.e. to the film in a meaningful way. These promises have definitely impeded progress in my career - I haven't scored a single mainstream Hollywood movie since 'Rogue Nation'. But I also haven't ripped anyone off, or swindled my friends, or presented a false impression. I promise not to hire an 'assistant' who is really a ghost-writer. I promise to do my best not to just copy the temp, but to contribute of myself to directors, producers, or studio execs. To the OP, Nadia, thank you for sharing your story. There are a lot of hard truths that need to be shown to those who hope to join this business. I think often of a quote once heard, spoken by one of the cinema's greatest composers: "I got into this business to make a living. Now people get into it to make a killing." In closing, let me reiterate, this is not whining - this is a tough business, and it's not for the faint of heart to undertake. It can be wonderfully rewarding, but it is also impossibly challenging. I hope it can evolve to a community that helps each other rather than competes with each other”. MaxTheHouseelf, Quintus, Falstaft and 12 others 13 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,504 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Even he gives a lot of vitriol about current state of affairs, I'd say that is good for him! It's only healthy to do a mix of big Hollywood projects and smaller indie affairs, if you're in a position to choose between them. Elfman has done the same thing consistently over the last two decades, and his best work is almost always the indie stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 28, 2021 I disagree with him about making art as a hobby. If it's your job, it's your main source of income and you deserve to be paid. Fabulin, Bayesian, Under-Terrestrial and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Under-Terrestrial 51 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 This is gross. Probably especially so for POC. I’ve always stuck my nose up at Remote Control re: quality of music, but these work conditions (wherever they happen) make that problem look like pretty small potatoes. This job needs higher pay with paid (and ideally less) overtime, no question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 He seems the sort of composer who might have thrived in the 80s and 90s. These days it's disproportionately more about who you're blowing than what you know. bollemanneke and Gruesome Son of a Bitch 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,483 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 These are hard times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Alan 689 Posted January 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 28, 2021 So I'm guessing from all of this that the ex-friend is Christopher McQuarrie, the deal he was swindled out of was Mission Impossible: Fallout and the Zimling is Lorne Balfe. Sad to hear a talented composer talk about the state of the industry in these terms. He, and everyone working in the industry, deserves better. Will, JTN, crumbs and 6 others 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,651 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Yeah, good for him for speaking out about the Mission: Impossible thing bluntly. JTN and dyemery 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Fabulin 3,513 Posted January 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 28, 2021 That lady is like an industry Snowden Jurassic Shark, Unlucky Bastard, Deacon Blues and 6 others 7 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 He's had a rough go and no mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 But according to the admin here movie music is in great shape right now and there's plenty to talk about; we don't require more interesting or more controversial topics at JWFan. Little wonder I have all but abandoned what used to be a major hobby and barely ever listen to film music anymore, especially the new stuff. Film music is dead as disco. When Williams does pass, it's all over. SteveMc, Gruesome Son of a Bitch and Unlucky Bastard 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,364 Posted January 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 28, 2021 If you're not finding good new film music to listen to you're simply not looking hard enough Of course things aren't like the 80s-90s when every random action movie probably had a score you'd want to listen to, but there's still amazing music coming out of all kinds of places regularly, for certain If it's not your cup of tea that's perfectly fine, no need to bring conspiracy theories about me into it. You enjoy what you enjoy and talk about what you want to talk about. Everything is all good my man! TSMefford, Falstaft, KK and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 I mostly just stick to video game soundtracks these days, mostly. Prefer what I hear there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,364 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Same! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Of all things, State of Decay 2 is my favourite soundtrack of the past 12 months. I never would have thunk. Composer Jesper Kyd is awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,513 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 59 minutes ago, Quintus said: Film music is dead as disco. When Williams does pass, it's all over. SteveMc, Quintus and Unlucky Bastard 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Woods 555 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Quintus said: Film music is dead as disco. When Williams does pass, it's all over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 The truth hurts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Woods 555 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 There is no truth in your statement at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,651 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 When we lose Williams, that just leaves room for Junkie XL to ascend to the throne. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 As long as William Ross is alive we won't notice any difference. Smeltington 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SilverTrumpet 638 Posted January 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 28, 2021 Most mainstream film music sucking doesn't negate the great film music that's still written. You just have to put a little more effort into finding it, but there are great resources to do so now as well which we didn't have 20 years ago. Because I know he's in this thread, I will say @Erik Woods's show is a big one for me which helped me get back into film music after many years. Once, Falstaft and Erik Woods 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Quintus said: But according to the admin here movie music is in great shape right now and there's plenty to talk about; we don't require more interesting or more controversial topics at JWFan. Little wonder I have all but abandoned what used to be a major hobby and barely ever listen to film music anymore, especially the new stuff. Film music is dead as disco. When Williams does pass, it's all over. I agree with you about the lack of film scoring these days. But as long as Intrada, Varese and LLL continue to pump out the oldies, I’ll be happy. And if they stop, I’ve got more than enough to keep me happy for the remainder of my time on earth. And if that makes me seem like a narrow minded old grouch, then so be it. I've been called worse. Quintus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 35 minutes ago, Erik Woods said: There is no truth in your statement at all. Gia fan? Desplat? Or are we talking Powell? I'll be more specific: when JW passes, great film scoring in the neo-romantic style will be dead. None of this watered down substitute from the likes of those guys mentioned above. Fabulin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Is this guy any good? He seems to confirm what guys like Drax and myself have suspected about Hollyweird. Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,364 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 His Rogue Nation score is awesome dyemery and MaxTheHouseelf 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 18 minutes ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said: Is this guy any good? He seems to confirm what guys like Drax and myself have suspected about Hollyweird. His music is decent. He probably lacks the brown-nosing networking skills required to get work but at least he seems honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted January 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 28, 2021 I haven’t scored a single mainstream Hollywood movie since ‘Rogue Nation’ either. mstrox, Erik Woods, Ricard and 2 others 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,513 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,457 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Kraemer is a great composer, it's terribly sad that he can't find jobs even after his wonderful Rogue Nation score. Meanwhile, the Balfes and Junkies of the world keep getting a lot of high budget movies and TV shows to score. And congratulations to him to speak the truth about what happened between him and McQuarrie on the last M: I. Jurassic Shark and dyemery 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Doesn't say much about the current state of Hollyweird if you have to mount an expedition to dig up new and decent film scores. Fabulin and Smeltington 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,651 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 I think there are plenty of composers who are extremely capable of writing the music we like to listen to, but either the nature of the film/director/producers dictates that they write in a style that doesn't fit what we want, or they don't get hired at all, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Nagus 43 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 (I just posted this at FSM as well) I hate this for him because I think he is one of the most talented composers around today and he just cannot catch a break. I thought it had happened with Rogue Nation but, then they dumped him for a boring score in Fallout. I tell ya, he would be my first call if I was a director. He'd become my John Williams and I'd be his Spielberg but, alas, I am just an IT guy in Alabama. Sorry Joe. Bayesian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Quintus 5,399 Posted January 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 28, 2021 7 minutes ago, The Big Man said: Doesn't say much about the current state of Hollyweird if you have to mount an expedition to dig up new and decent film scores. This compared to previous decades where there were outstanding scores coming out from every left right and centre of Hollywood and elsewhere, written by absolute virtuosos and downright musical prodigies. It was like that for years and years and years. Even B-movies and lesser had very fine music written for them. Gruesome Son of a Bitch, Unlucky Bastard and Fabulin 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TSMefford 1,509 Posted January 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 28, 2021 Unfortunately, this is how it is for most behind the camera jobs in Hollywood from what I've heard, perhaps besides Directors and Producers. I'm talking Cinematographers, Editors, Costume, Sound, Music, and especially VFX. I mean for goodness sake those guys have to move around the world to follow the latest place everyone is outsourcing to, and once they get there it can be 100+ hour weeks, constant revisions on an extremely tight deadline, and very poor pay. Not to mention all the assistants, PAs, etc. For many years, since I was young and saw Jurassic Park for the first time, I was fascinated by filmmaking and always wanted to make something like it. Something big, something impactful. I devoted much of my life to building the skills and a passion to one day enter the industry, but he's right. It's basically impossible. Especially if you ever want job security, a life, hobbies, friends, family, etc. To an extent, no matter how successful you are or what you've worked on, the next gig is never a guarantee. You could work on a critically acclaimed, massive money-maker, and not know if you'll ever work again. Not to mention, the constant struggle of juggling jobs and priorities. Do I take this small gig to make ends meet? What if I get offered a bigger job, but I've already committed to this smaller one? That's just not something I can or am willing to handle in my life, especially if the art doesn't matter. I value my friendships, relationships, and my sanity too much now. Fortunately for me, I've been able to put those skills to use elsewhere and still make a living doing something close enough. I can definitely imagine those same problems and issues plague most of film scoring. None of what I'm hearing here is remotely surprising. Bayesian, Jurassic Shark, Taikomochi and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Erik Woods 555 Posted January 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 28, 2021 28 minutes ago, Quintus said: Gia fan? Desplat? Or are we talking Powell? I'll be more specific: when JW passes, great film scoring in the neo-romantic style will be dead. None of this watered down substitute from the likes of those guys mentioned above. Ugh... I hate doing home work for other people and I'm sure you'll just crap all over what ever I write because you already have your mind set but here we go anyway... And yes, Giacchino, Desplat, Powell, Silvestri, Howard, etc are still writing scores in that style you so covet. But there is a new crop of exciting composers that have been passed the torch and are doing great things in the film, TV and video game world... Look up people like Christopher Willis, Nami Melumad, Philip Klein, Austin Wintory, Gordy Haab, Marcus Paus, Federico Jusid, Fernando Velazquez, Eímear Noone, Chad Cannon, Marcus Trumpp, Anne Kathrin Dern,. Ralf Wengenmayr, Carlos Riveria, Amelia Warner, George Kallis, Alexander Cimini, John Paesano, Abel Korzenowski, Panu Aaltio, etc, etc, etc... All of them... extremely gifted and are currently crafting wonderful, varied scores that keep film music magical, nostalgic, fun, exciting and new. Now it's up to you to discover them for yourself. Falstaft, crumbs, Quintus and 2 others 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMefford 1,509 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 There's absolutely still plenty of great music being written for films, sometimes even greater music written for television as well. What are you all on about? I agree it feels like it is a bit harder to come by than in the past for me, but that's because it's not always on the biggest blockbusters these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,316 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 3 hours ago, Alan said: So I'm guessing from all of this that the ex-friend is Christopher McQuarrie, the deal he was swindled out of was Mission Impossible: Fallout and the Zimling is Lorne Balfe. That was my conclusion too. Sad to read. Kraemer, like so many talented but underutilised, seemingly outcast composers, deserve so much better. Edmilson and Alan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 22 minutes ago, Erik Woods said: Ugh... I hate doing home work for other people and I'm sure you'll just crap all over what ever I write Not at all, Erik. Thanks for the list of names, I would *sincerely* love to see some of your suggestions rise up and be given the opportunity to prove themselves and indeed carry that torch. Fuck, I'd love nothing more. But apparently film scoring work isn't really the right environment at the moment for that kind of thing to happen. Artistry doesn't seem to be nurtured in a way we would like it to be, or at least to an extent where it can make a big splash on the scene. Yet I believe that real talent, the blood n guts god given stuff, does rise up above these challenges. And if it doesn't, it was probably never really good enough to begin with. TSMefford 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 2,835 Posted January 28, 2021 Author Share Posted January 28, 2021 Not even the Zimlings survived! Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 20 minutes ago, Edmilson said: And congratulations to him to speak the truth about what happened between him and McQuarrie on the last M: I. What did he say now again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Woods 555 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 13 minutes ago, Fabulin said: "Great"? Please name 2 examples from each of the past 5 years, Williams and Powell excluded. It's as if you don't even listen to ANYTHING OTHER than Williams and Powell with a comment like that. MASQUERADE HOTEL, GODZILLA: KING OF THE MONSTERS, MIDSOMMER, SHAZAM!, TRAUMFABRIK, UNTAMED ROMANIA, MAX & ME, MARY SHELLEY, THE MIRCALE SEASON, EL FOTOGRAFO DE MAUTHAUSEN, THE EMPEROR OF PARIS, WATERSHIP DOWN, BENJI, JIM KNOPF UND DIE WILDE 13, OUT OF THE SHADOWS, MARY POPPIN RETURNS, THE CLOVERFIELD PARADOX, BLACK PANTHER, READY PLAYER ONE, CAPTAIN UNDERPANTS, PHANTOM THREAD, THE DEATH OF STALIN, THE PERSONAL HISTORY OF DAVID COPPERFIELD, ALBION THE ENCHANTED STALLION, CELLO, REBEL IN THE RYE, A CURE FOR WELLNESS, THE RENDEZVOUS, 95, THE RED TURTLE, PETE'S DRAGON, GODS OF EGYPT, 10 CLOVERFIELD LANE, DARK WAVES, SWISS ARMY MAN, NERVE, MORIBITO: GUARDIAN OF THE SPIRIT, THE CAIRO DECLARATION, KUBO AND THE TWO STRINGS, WONDER WOMAN 1984, FUKUSHIMA 50... Whoops... that was more than two. Fabulin and TSMefford 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crumbs 14,316 Posted January 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 28, 2021 16 minutes ago, TSMefford said: There's absolutely still plenty of great music being written for films, sometimes even greater music written for television as well. What are you all on about? I agree it feels like it is a bit harder to come by than in the past for me, but that's because it's not always on the biggest blockbusters these days. I think Kraemer raises a much broader issue than just the quality of the music. It's about the state of the industry and the ever-worsening conditions faced by young composers, which appears to be a direct result of the very aggressive business model of that company. Film music has slowly morphed into little more than a moneymaking factory, with aforementioned company monopolising the work by undercutting established composers, lowering the pay and conditions for all except the "brains trust" behind this model (the one whose name studios want on their posters). Everything about that company seems insidious to me. Seemingly taking advantage of eager young composers while paying them peanuts, but always dangling that carrot in their face of being 'the next Lorne Balfe.' Not Mr. Big, dyemery and TSMefford 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 16 minutes ago, rolltide1017 said: I tell ya, he would be my first call if I was a director. He'd become my John Williams and I'd be his Spielberg but, alas, I am just an IT guy in Alabama. Sorry Joe. At least you can fix his composition computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,457 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: What did he say now again? He said: "One of my closest friends made a deal behind my back that swindled me out of hundreds of thousands of dollars and then dumped me for a Zimling and this was after assuring me that working for him/her was the same as having a "savings bond". " Someone should tag Lorne Balfe in Kraemer's tweet, I'd like to see what his reaction would be. Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Woods 555 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Edmilson said: He said: "One of my closest friends made a deal behind my back that swindled me out of hundreds of thousands of dollars and then dumped me for a Zimling and this was after assuring me that working for him/her was the same as having a "savings bond". " Someone should tag Lorne Balfe in Kraemer's tweet, I'd like to see what his reaction would be. Just a reminder... this isn't Lorne Balfe's fault. Would you say no if a director came up to you can said, "Wanna score the next Mission: Impossible film?" So, I hope no one tags Balfe because 1) that would be rude and 2) Balfe is actually a really, really nice guy who doesn't need to be dragged into this. dyemery 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 23 minutes ago, Quintus said: Even B-movies and lesser had very fine music written for them. Heck, even Star Wars got a decent score. 2 minutes ago, Erik Woods said: Just a reminder... this isn't Lorne Balfe's fault. Would you say no if a director came up to you can said, "Wanna score the next Mission: Impossible film?" Well, not everyone has the habit of backstabbing their closest friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Woods 555 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Well, not everyone has the habit of backstabbing their closest friends. True. That is some evil shit right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMefford 1,509 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, crumbs said: I think there's a much wider issue than just the quality of the music. It's that the artform of film music has transformed into a monstrous moneymaking factory, with one (very obvious) company aggressively monopolising and hoovering up all the work by undercutting the established composers (thus lowering the overall pay and conditions for all involved). They appear to be taking advantage of eager young composers keen to break into the industry by paying them peanuts with the lure of being the next... Lorne Balfe? Oh I absolutely do still agree with that. That is a problem for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 I remember when I first heard Balfe on Crysis 2 (yet another higher end video game score) and I thought, "hey here's another guy to watch." But then he went to Hollywood and blended in with the rest of the current dirge, took the pay and slotted himself in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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