Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Vote and discuss! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,506 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted August 12, 2021 Author Share Posted August 12, 2021 That's an interesting point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Oui. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,483 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Yes, Goldsmith's music is more "manly". But I learned to apreciate his style, and now I like it very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,367 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 I love the music of both composers, and both are capable of writing a wide variety of music, including elegant music. Overall, John's music is more elegant than Jerry's, sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ricard 2,245 Posted August 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2021 Yes, especially the action writing, and that's the exact reason why I preferred one over the other when I started to listen to both in the '70s. Thanks for bringing that up. Joni Wiljami, Jay, Raiders of the SoundtrArk and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,367 Posted August 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2021 I think John Williams might write the most elegant action music of any composer I know Jurassic Shark, Raiders of the SoundtrArk and Bespin 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bespin 8,483 Posted August 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2021 51 minutes ago, Jay said: I think John Williams might write the most elegant action music of any composer I know The action music of John Williams is never just NOISE or generic action music, it's fugues mixed with percussive madness and lyrical sections... it's structured and it have a development, it's not just sections of music randomly mixed together. That's very complex writing! And it is... just WOW! Jay, aescalle, Jurassic Shark and 4 others 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,533 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Yes, of course it is, but that doesn't mean that Jerry doesn't compose elegant music. I see JW, and Jerry, as the heart and mind of one organism. Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Jerry wrote plenty of elegant music. I see no clear winner here. MikeH and Tallguy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post GerateWohl 4,370 Posted August 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2021 When I remember all the Interviews and other footage of the two, then I would dare to say, John Williams might simply be the more elegant person. And probably that's why. Jurassic Shark, Sandor and Andy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted August 12, 2021 Author Share Posted August 12, 2021 He's a wolf in sheep's clothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,483 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 I watched a Jerry Goldsmith video on YouTube talking about the scoring of Alien. About watching a scary scene while composing, he said : "It get the shit out of me!". Less elegant, but the result is there!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,367 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Naïve Old Fart said: I see JW, and Jerry, as the heart and mind of one organism. Interesting analogy! Tell me more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted August 12, 2021 Author Share Posted August 12, 2021 What kind of organism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bespin 8,483 Posted August 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2021 Like the Yin and Yan ya know... the Yohn and Yerry! I love you Yohn! Martinland, Jurassic Shark, Nemesis and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,370 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 John might be more elegant. But Jerry probably was the cooler composer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted August 12, 2021 Author Share Posted August 12, 2021 But John started out as a cool cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,367 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Who is more elegant in this picture? Taikomochi and Bespin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stravinsky 206 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Jerry was a high flyer in the 60s but eclipsed by Williams in the 70s. I love both composers but Williams is the daddy of them all. Also remember Williams never had a single score rejected whereas Goldsmith had plenty. Plus the fact that Goldsmith's output declined in quality by the mid 80s whereas Williams continued to improve. Just two entirely different composers I guess. Bayesian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,367 Posted August 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, stravinsky said: Goldsmith's output declined in quality by the mid 80s Chewy, Taikomochi, Bespin and 2 others 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted August 12, 2021 Author Share Posted August 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, stravinsky said: Goldsmith's output declined in quality by the mid 80s Oooooh, you're gonna regret that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stravinsky 206 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Drum machine hell much of it. Too much electronica for my liking. A poverty of ideas especially in terms of melody. Joni Wiljami 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted August 12, 2021 Author Share Posted August 12, 2021 He did the best synth farts ever. GerateWohl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stravinsky 206 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: He did the best synth farts ever. Well there is that For me Poltergeist was the last truly GREAT score he ever wrote. Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,483 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Can we ban him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,367 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Total Recall and Basic Instinct are two of my favorite Jerry scores! Bespin and Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,483 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 This stravinsky just want to fight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stravinsky 206 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Yes there are highlights like Basic Instinct and Total Recall in an otherwise largely moribund landscape. Darlings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,367 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 33 minutes ago, stravinsky said: Yes there are highlights like Basic Instinct and Total Recall in an otherwise largely moribund landscape. Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted August 12, 2021 Author Share Posted August 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, stravinsky said: Yes there are highlights like Basic Instinct and Total Recall in an otherwise largely moribund landscape. Darlings! Brother! MikeH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stravinsky 206 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 The fact is that Goldsmith even at his very best couldn't compare with the terrifying passion and sheer metaphysical weight of Williams. Dont get me wrong I love Goldsmith but he is Haydn to Williams Mozart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 186 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 I'd argue that the answer greatly depends on how you define "elegant" - if you mean "refined and colourful, ever changing orchestration and subtle motivic integration", this would fit more with Williams's output. But if you define it as "use the simplest fitting means to achieve maximum effect" (a.k.a. the Mozart way), this fits better with the music of Goldsmith. (Or as he is reported to have answered the question of how to write good music: "You put something on the top... something on the bottom... and something in the middle.") Cerebral Cortex 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Fabulin 3,513 Posted August 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2021 1 minute ago, ChrisAfonso said: But if you define it as "use the simplest fitting means to achieve maximum effect" (a.k.a. the Mozart way) the Zimmer way! MaxTheHouseelf, Jurassic Shark and GerateWohl 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,370 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 1 minute ago, ChrisAfonso said: But if you define it as "use the simplest fitting means to achieve maximum effect" That is what I meant with "cool". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stravinsky 206 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 I think we can all agree that the output of the devine Mozart was more elegant than Haydn. Just like with Goldsmith and Williams, Haydn came a very very close second. Otherwise this is all merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative. DAHLINGS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omen II 1,235 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 48 minutes ago, Jay said: Who is more elegant in this picture? The photobombing Lalo Schifrin! Jay and Ricard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 186 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 9 minutes ago, Fabulin said: the Zimmer way! The original Zimmer way was just the Jerry way with (more) synths! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Bespin said: This stravinsky just want to fight! I like him and agree pretty much. Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 49 minutes ago, ChrisAfonso said: The original Zimmer way was just the Jerry way with (more) synths! …and simpler rhythms. Anyway, more elegant? It depends on the score/what they were going for. There are many cases where JW excels, but then there's also stuff like this: Romão 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Cerebral Cortex 3,357 Posted August 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2021 While I feel both excel quite well in this category, Williams does seem to be a cat that always manages to gracefully land on its feet. Few instances highlight this to greater effect in my mind than in the end credits to ROTJ, where Williams has tasked himself with somehow transitioning out of the endearingly wonky Ewok theme and into the exact musical polar opposite: Luke and Leia's theme. And yet the end result is somehow seamless, not jarring at all and, dare I say, elegant. mrbellamy, Joni Wiljami and Jay 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,367 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Great example! Cerebral Cortex 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallguy 3,394 Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 2 hours ago, Cerebral Cortex said: While I feel both excel quite well in this category, Williams does seem to be a cat that always manages to gracefully land on its feet. Few instances highlight this to greater effect in my mind than in the end credits to ROTJ, where Williams has tasked himself with somehow transitioning out of the endearingly wonky Ewok theme and into the exact musical polar opposite: Luke and Leia's theme. And yet the end result is somehow seamless, not jarring at all and, dare I say, elegant. I probably don't appreciate those transitions enough because they are the worst in the trilogy. Which is like being the ugliest Hemsworth. blondheim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,483 Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 Well in a live concert it should be great to hear, obviously the ROTJ end credits on the OST is an edited recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stravinsky 206 Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 For me Goldsmith was essentially a rhythmic composer and a timbre junkie. He could create music which was at once archaic and futuristic like POTA. But then again he could disapoint in the breadth of a single score. For instance with Capricorn One. He immediately grabs our attention with a staggering main title of visceral arrest, unearthly motoric cogs in interlocking pulse patterns in the Docking cue. But then he ruins the score with a sappy kind of lame love theme which is really just a sequence of notes rather than an actual melody. Williams just could not ever have imagined the sonic territory of a score like The Mephisto Waltz for instance. Whilst Goldsmith lacked the melodic facility and breathtaking rapture of Williams at his height. I have recordings of almost everything Goldsmith wrote from 1959 to 1979. His greatest era. Its useless really to compare these two gas giants. I think in their own different ways they are completely equal. Heaven could include Close Encounters/The Red Pony Hell could be Alien/Images. Complete parity of genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallguy 3,394 Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 I'm not sure how I'm feeling about "elegant". I mean, both of them could be sublime. I hate to say this here of all places, but I think I know more Goldsmith scores than Williams. Williams stopped holding my attention at some point and Goldsmith never did. But there are fewer Goldsmith scores that I know every note of and more Williams where that's the case. (There are more Goldsmith scores that I'm at least a little interested in? But more Williams scores that have my undivided attention.) It's like picking my favorite kid. Or even more appropriate: My favorite parent. They both gave me such different gifts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 9 hours ago, stravinsky said: Jerry was a high flyer in the 60s but eclipsed by Williams in the 70s. I love both composers but Williams is the daddy of them all. Also remember Williams never had a single score rejected whereas Goldsmith had plenty. Plus the fact that Goldsmith's output declined in quality by the mid 80s whereas Williams continued to improve. Just two entirely different composers I guess. That's fanboy rationalizing - one could easily counter that Williams is more opportunistic and his conservative approach served him well, especially in the likeminded Hollywood of the 80's/90's. Be that as it may, JW is the more elegant composer, but frankly also the more boring one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,370 Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 42 minutes ago, publicist said: ..., but frankly also the more boring one. That view highly depends in what is your aera of interest in music. I would say, Goldsmith wrote more boring scores than Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,506 Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 I'm impressed there's still all this stamina to discuss something so tired and old. The Williams vs. Goldsmith debate has been a stalwart discussion for as long as I've been visiting film music forums (long before too, but then less visible). What happened with enjoying both composers' work for their own inherent values? Tallguy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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