Natalie Holt's OBI-WAN KENOBI (2022)

[greenturnedblue 372]

1 hour ago, DarthDementous said:

Bad Batch is an incredibly aimless series

I would agree except in the case of the first and last episodes, and some certain additions to the lore like the TK troopers and commandos. Other then that pretty much the entirety of the show is filler/fluff and the most childish Disney SW show by far

[DarthDementous 1,059]

56 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

I would agree except in the case of the first and last episodes, and some certain additions to the lore like the TK troopers and commandos. Other then that pretty much the entirety of the show is filler/fluff and the most childish Disney SW show by far

I could be wrong but I'm fairly sure the idea that Stormtroopers were trained by old Clone Commandos is something that was established beforehand

It's definitely not the most childish show, Resistance takes the cake for that, and it also has that scene where a group of Stormtroopers incinerate civilians. The fact the entirety of the show is fluff is definitely my main issue with it, the Bad Batch have a strong impetus to get away from the Empire but then they just kind of float around doing boring side-quests for other people instead of finding and committing to a new purpose

[igger6 894]

9 hours ago, Gibster said:

The famous ‘Imperial March’ is so militant and organised, and I wanted visceral. I wanted pure rage.”

Giacchino solved the heck out of this “problem” in the climactic Vader scene in Rogue One. Nothing organized about that theater-shaking rendering!

[mrbellamy 6,287]

If I've learned anything from listening to JW it's that a melody is just a melody and can be transformed. Rewrite it, reharmonize it, reorchestrate it. The barest bones of Imperial March are literally just three intervals (dotted rhythms optional). You could maybe even get it down to two and still be instantly recognizable in context, the ascending P5 and descending m3. Fans will always debate if it's a crappy version or not but it's all anybody wants to hear a few times with Vader. 

 

Not even just talking about Holt specifically, I went through this shit for years with the Harry Potter movies and people saying the Williams themes were too inherently childish to be in the new scores. It's ridiculous....it's an unmusical objection, really. 

[Will 2,215]

For the most part, my favorite cues are those by Ross, e.g.:

 

 

In his best moments, like the above, Ross does an excellent job emulating Williams' orchestration and style. See also this brilliant passage (timestamp to end), with similarities to "The Spark," "Torn Apart," "The Last Jedi," "Falcon Flight," & other sequel trilogy cues:

 

 

And the opening 60 seconds below sound so similar to JW's sequel trilogy writing, e.g. "Rey Meets BB-8" & "Finn and Poe United" (which of course Ross helped orchestrate/conduct, so I suppose it's no surprise he's able to emulate it so well!):

 

 

I do really enjoy Holt's "Young Leia," though:

 

 

Reminds me of John Powell -- mixing Zimmer-style percussion with more old-fashioned, lyrical melodies. Lovely optimistic piece.

[Exar Xan 1]

Has somebody done a proper track list, chronological by episode, yet for this soundtrack?

[DiamondFire 67]

12 hours ago, Michael G. said:

I'm crying right now, my heart is deeply hurt....

 

The worst part is that the other four are giving nods of approval.

tbh I just feel bad for the people who reacted to your reply with angry faces lol

[Tydirium 1,167]

4 hours ago, DiamondFire said:

tbh I just feel bad for the people who reacted to your reply with angry faces lol

 

Why?

[Richard Penna 3,689]

17 hours ago, artguy360 said:

Ross was brought in to do clean-up. Like a pinch hitter or relief pitcher in baseball. Those roles rarely ever get media attention. I bet the only reason he got billing (unlike the other unnamed composers who worked with Holt) is because of his connection to JW.

 

In theory his job was no different to the other additional composers, so if one is arguing for more exposure of his work, the same should apply to the others.

 

Of course, I'm being deliberately obtuse - Ross was brought in to help Holt put Williams' theme into the score and his approach is more traditional - obviously it will attract more attention for both of those reasons.

 

I can understand people making playlists containing only Ross' material if they don't like Holt's (I prefer Holt's), but I don't get the general whining that he's not getting enough attention - his name's on the front cover!

[greenturnedblue 372]

44 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

but I don't get the general whining that he's not getting enough attention - his name's on the front cover!

I guess you've missed a couple posts up of people messaging Holt on twitter praising her for cues Ross wrote. The credit on the cover "Obi Wan theme adapted by" is pretty lame too considering Ross did much more then that. It should say "music by Natalie Holt & William Ross" but alas

[Fabulin 3,512]

Credit is given in a deliberately misleading way. Nothing new, nothing acceptable either.

[Richard Penna 3,689]

How is it misleading? I've listened to most of the album and where I noticed it had switched to Ross, for the most part it was adapting the main theme in various forms.

 

And it's far better than how additional composers are credited in other cases such as Powell, Beltrami, Howard, McCreary, etc.

 

Is it just in the case of John Williams where anyone who's touched his material must be given prime billing? Seriously... the need for validation around here is stratospheric. Can't you just enjoy the music without worrying about a few people on Twitter not reading track credits properly?

 

If it makes you feel better/worse, John Williams is 'primary artist' on the album on Qobuz. Hehehe.

[greenturnedblue 372]

2 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Can't you just enjoy the music without worrying about a few people on Twitter not reading track credits properly

 

Sadly I don't enjoy the music, irrelevant of what people on twitter think, because I just don't like it very much. When you say I should just enjoy the music you might as well say that I have to like it

 

Seems like you don't think it is an injustice to Ross that even though he dealt with all the Williams material including his Obi Wan theme, the force theme, Leia's theme and the Imperial March, and scored large parts of the score including athematic material, several key moments like the both Vader vs Obi Wan duels and almost the entirety of the ending, and more that I am not remember that was discussed a few pages back. In fact we estimate Ross scored 1/3-1/2 of the entire show. And yet all he got was "obi Wan theme adapted by"?

 

Saying it's better then how some other composers are treated does not mean much. The RCP beast is a whole other issue. The fact remains Ross earnt more credit then what he got. You can read up on the Joe Kraemer M:I situation if you want to see the true state of the film music industry.

 

The film industry as a whole has been moving more towards creating a commercial product and less as a piece of artistic expression over the last decade or two. You know it, I know it, and Disney knows it that all the Disney SW projects including the movies and TV shows (save for perhaps what Favreau and Filoni are involved in) are a big money making endeavor. As opposed to the original films, even the prequels, which were vested in George Lucas's love for the craft. 

 

 

[Tydirium 1,167]

3 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

How is it misleading? I've listened to most of the album and where I noticed it had switched to Ross, for the most part it was adapting the main theme in various forms.

 

Well, that's just it: why are you only going off of what was included on the album, and not all the other music he wrote for the show? There is plenty of stuff he did for the show that didn't make it on the album, and there was a good amount of it that either didn't feature the Obi-Wan theme, or only minimally featured it.

 

I mean, can you explain why Ross' music for Obi-Wan/Vader's first encounter/duel in a decade (so, a very important moment) isn't included on the soundtrack album, but an unused cue by Natalie Holt ("Ready to Go"), is? Maybe, just maybe, Holt/Disney/the people involved in producing the soundtrack, didn't want listeners to realize that both Obi-Wan/Vader duels were scored by Ross? Because that would be kind of a bad look for the main credited composer...

 

5 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

I can understand people making playlists containing only Ross' material if they don't like Holt's (I prefer Holt's), but I don't get the general whining that he's not getting enough attention - his name's on the front cover!

 

He's on the cover for "adapting" a single theme. Not for writing a sizable chunk of the show's score, which is what he appears to have done.

[MrJosh 892]

I wonder if Ready to Go was replaced by Ross' The Journey Begins. Anyone try syncing it up? If that's the case, what a vastly different feel those two cues have. Holt's has a much larger dose of 'epic.'

 

After listening through the release, I liked William Ross' contributions most (no surprise there). I love the warmth I feel in Some Things Can't Be Forgotten and the melancholy melodic material within that cue works well I think with the flashback scene. Saying Goodbye also has that kind of warmth to the writing. 

 

For Natalie Holt's music, I did enjoy the Days of Alderaan and Young Leia tracks, and the intro of the Mapuzo track...the motif for that planet is actually memorable for me. 

 

 

[nfjfnedjfdjd 13]

.

 

[mstrox 6,651]

I’m sure Ross’s credit was negotiated as part of his contract to take the job, and is therefore an acceptable credit to him.

[Tydirium 1,167]

Just because he accepted it, doesn't mean it's all he deserves...

[greenturnedblue 372]

10 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I’m sure Ross’s credit was negotiated as part of his contract to take the job, and is therefore an acceptable credit to him.

That is some pretty blatant conjecture!

[mstrox 6,651]

No, that’s literally what happens when you sign on to a film project.  If you are unhappy with a part of your contract, presumably you wouldn’t take the work.

[DiamondFire 67]

22 hours ago, Arpy said:

Most retail entertainment stores sell CDs, I'm surprised you never encountered them!

I actually see records more than CDs! I remember owning a Jedward CD in 2013, ah the good times

[greenturnedblue 372]

We don't know the nature of his contract, so I wouldn't presume to know if he was happy or unhappy with it

[DangerMotif 1,037]

You can say the same thing about ghostwriters also then

1 hour ago, mstrox said:

I’m sure Ross’s credit was negotiated as part of his contract to take the job, and is therefore an acceptable credit to him.

 

[Mephariel 451]

2 hours ago, Gibster said:

You can say the same thing about ghostwriters also then

 

 

I mean you can. It may not be fair, but they know what they are getting into.

3 hours ago, Tydirium said:

Just because he accepted it, doesn't mean it's all he deserves...

 

It is not that surprising to me because you get paid based on the cuesheet, not the front cover. I am not saying Ross was happy with it, but it could be that as long he was getting paid properly and was credited on the cuesheet, he was okay with it.

[artguy360 1,843]

Listening to the OST again, it's clear to me that the action music by Holt is what brings down the score the most. Her music for Leia and the more melodic stuff are not bad at all. The action music though is just modern movie noise and drums. 

 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,893]

I'm curious what you all think... the first sample is part of the original track, unaltered. For the second track I remixed the channels a bit and added some reverb (a bit too much in hindsight, but you get the idea). Which one sounds more "natural"?

 

 

[GerateWohl 4,369]

2 hours ago, artguy360 said:

Listening to the OST again, it's clear to me that the action music by Holt is what brings down the score the most. Her music for Leia and the more melodic stuff are not bad at all. The action music though is just modern movie noise and drums. 

That is interesting. Because for me especially these melodic parts like Young Leia and Days of Alderaan are the pieces that distract me from the score as a Star Wars score because they don't sound like Star Wars at all. To be honest, also the action pieces in Rogue One and Solo didn't sound much like Williams' action music for SW, but the scores managed to sound like SW in the more melodic parts and that is for me the defining aspect of the score. 

 

And as we know, noone can write action music like John Williams, so I don't blame Holt for that.

 

[DarthDementous 1,059]

2 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

I'm curious what you all think... the first sample is part of the original track, unaltered. For the second track I remixed the channels a bit and added some reverb (a bit too much in hindsight, but you get the idea). Which one sounds more "natural"?

 

 

Definitely the second

[michael_grig 472]

16 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

I'm curious what you all think... the first sample is part of the original track, unaltered. For the second track I remixed the channels a bit and added some reverb (a bit too much in hindsight, but you get the idea). Which one sounds more "natural"?

 

 

second is way better, thank god you mixed the timpani down, i hate the sound of this thing on these recordings. but reverb is as you said too much, you can hear it clearly in the militaristic march from 00:20

[Alex Shore 83]

 

 

 

 

[igger6 894]

Anyone know what the distinctive seven-note melody that opens and closes "Some Things Can't Be Forgotten" is?  I've heard tell of a Ross Vader theme, but I haven't found it yet, and this can't be that.  Is it a Holt theme that I'm not recognizing, or is it some other Ross-penned theme?

 

 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,893]

 

51 minutes ago, igger6 said:

I've heard tell of a Ross Vader theme, but I haven't found it yet

 

It's at 0:20 in the two audio clips I shared a few posts above. The site isn't letting me reinsert them into this post for some reason.

[thestat 348]

The Holt stuff - I guess that is the way film composing works nowadays. You either sound like Balfe (note, not Zimmer, there is a difference) or you don't get paid The Ross stuff is good, as is the Holt Empire material

I guess, you go for Holt, but you come back for the Speed 2, the Cruise CONTROL.....

MARK MANCINA IS A DUDE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj_8LI6N6nw

GUYS, STOP IT.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

4 hours ago, igger6 said:

Anyone know what the distinctive seven-note melody that opens and closes "Some Things Can't Be Forgotten" is?  I've heard tell of a Ross Vader theme, but I haven't found it yet, and this can't be that.  Is it a Holt theme that I'm not recognizing, or is it some other Ross-penned theme?

 

 

Oh wow, that is a very nice theme. I think it would be the perfect theme for the Prequel Jedi, which is probably why it plays during the Obi Wan and Anakin flashback in the Jedi Temple

Shares a few similarities to the Jedi Fallen Order main theme which is perfect in terms of musical continuity: 

Blimey, what an absolutely breath-taking piece of music...I really can't wait until Jedi Survivor

 

[DangerMotif 1,037]

Natalie Holt has yet to mention Obi Wan on her site, she posted about very early on and had music up before the first episode. Speaks volumes IMO

[lairdo 726]

I know this was mentioned on another Obi-Wan Kenobi thread that Canadian violinist James Ehnes performed on the score. It's a nice connection given Ehnes has played the JW first violin concerto Stephane Deneve from time to time.

 

Here's an article I found about his involvement.

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/arts-and-life/entertainment/arts/from-tatooine-with-love-576468612.html

 

 

[artguy360 1,843]

I don't understand why Vader needed a new theme at all. I read the quote about not having permission to use JW's themes but I honestly question the truth of that statement. There have been so many other pieces of Star Wars media that use JW's themes. And ROTS showed how Vader's theme could be played in ways that are more brooding and less martial.

[ThePenitentMan1 743]

2 hours ago, artguy360 said:

I don't understand why Vader needed a new theme at all. I read the quote about not having permission to use JW's themes but I honestly question the truth of that statement. There have been so many other pieces of Star Wars media that use JW's themes. And ROTS showed how Vader's theme could be played in ways that are more brooding and less martial.

Heck, Williams himself made Vaders theme sound sympathetic in RotJ.

[igger6 894]

10 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

 

It's at 0:20 in the two audio clips I shared a few posts above. The site isn't letting me reinsert them into this post for some reason.

 

Interesting.  Between that one and the one I found below, the number of Ross themes is creeping up to match the number of Holt themes.

[DrTenma 116]

On 27/06/2022 at 12:40 PM, crumbs said:

 

YouTube lists Williams as the sole composer of End Credits, unlike the 6 other William Ross tracks (where the credit is shared). 

 

I think we can infer Williams wrote the alternate intro and outro used for the end credits. 

Well... That's surprising for me. That Intro doesn't sound right. Maybe it's the interpretation, maybe the mixing but for me is totally off.

On 29/06/2022 at 8:29 PM, Tydirium said:

I mean, can you explain why Ross' music for Obi-Wan/Vader's first encounter/duel in a decade (so, a very important moment) isn't included on the soundtrack album, but an unused cue by Natalie Holt ("Ready to Go"), is? Maybe, just maybe, Holt/Disney/the people involved in producing the soundtrack, didn't want listeners to realize that both Obi-Wan/Vader duels were scored by Ross? Because that would be kind of a bad look for the main credited composer...

 

Ohh so the duel music in the OST is not the one in the series? I got that impression but thought maybe I didn't recall it well from the episode and, honestly, I didn't what to see it again to check. 

[DiamondFire 67]

4 hours ago, DrTenma said:

Well... That's surprising for me. That Intro doesn't sound right. Maybe it's the interpretation, maybe the mixing but for me is totally off.

 

Ohh so the duel music in the OST is not the one in the series? I got that impression but thought maybe I didn't recall it well from the episode and, honestly, I didn't what to see it again to check. 

It is the one in the series. Tydirium is talking about the first duel in episode 3

not sure why anybody would want the music from it, just sounded like a more basic version of the episode 6 one to me :()

[SilverTrumpet 638]

18 hours ago, igger6 said:

Anyone know what the distinctive seven-note melody that opens and closes "Some Things Can't Be Forgotten" is?  I've heard tell of a Ross Vader theme, but I haven't found it yet, and this can't be that.  Is it a Holt theme that I'm not recognizing, or is it some other Ross-penned theme?

 

 

 

 

[Tydirium 1,167]

2 hours ago, DiamondFire said:

It is the one in the series. Tydirium is talking about the first duel in episode 3

not sure why anybody would want the music from it, just sounded like a more basic version of the episode 6 one to me :()

 

Thanks for clarifying for me. As for the reason why anybody would want it... I mean, it's a Vader/Obi-Wan duel, lol, not to mention their first time meeting face to face in a decade. It's an extremely important moment in the franchise. Plenty of moments of far less importance have had their music released (even when it wasn't as good as that duel's music); why shouldn't this one? Especially when it's a digital-only album that has no time constraints and could easily accommodate a few extra minutes of music...?

 

Also, keep in mind that the episode 3 cue in question isn't just the music for the Vader/Obi duel; it also scores Tala/Leia running through the tunnels, and Reva searching for Leia. It's like a 4 or 5-minute-long track, at least.

 

EDIT: Annnd I just re-listened to it. It's not just a more basic version of the episode 6 one; there's a bunch of different stuff. What about the very classic-sounding trumpet triplet section when they first clash?

[igger6 894]

40 minutes ago, SilverTrumpet said:

 

 

Oh, the heck! It’s just the same rhythm. 

[SilverTrumpet 638]

I dunno. The first time I heard the track my mind went to Portals. I know it's not identical notes, but it definitely had a similar feeling enough for me to think of it, PLUS another person saying it was familiar sounding. 

[igger6 894]

No, I totally hear it, too, haha. I just tend to lash out irrationally whenever a theme I like is compared to a prior theme. 

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

https://www.slashfilm.com/915110/obi-wan-kenobi-composer-natalie-holt-breaks-down-scoring-the-shows-biggest-scenes-interview/
 

another interview with holt (i hope it is new)

 

it makes it clear that deborah chow and her were not the ideal people for the project. How can they not want it to be too much ‘star wars’?

 

Why dont these people make their own sci-fi films or tv series? Why lucasfilm keeps hiring them instead of more swfan oriented directors?

[GerateWohl 4,369]

9 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

it makes it clear that deborah chow and her were not the ideal people for the project. How can they not want it to be too much ‘star wars’?

 

Why dont these people make their own sci-fi films or tv series? Why lucasfilm keeps hiring them instead of more swfan oriented directors?

I think, the idea is, that before they made good experience with bringing non-Star Wars people into SW projects and really contributing good things to it, like Irvin Kershner in Empire or that screen writer that was brought late into the process for Rogue One.

But I think that only works when you exchange just one big variable at a time. Take a good experienced Star Wars team and bring in a new screenwriter, director, composer, editor. Might turn out great. But not all at once. That turns out in a mess.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Well swfandom is not always great… when JJ was approached i thought it was going to be great… and his ideas were very meh for me. …

 

musically he did good, but at the same time at the expense of williams health and time….he strained him too much

[Edmilson 7,454]

MMUK's review:

 

https://moviemusicuk.us/2022/07/01/obi-wan-kenobi-natalie-holt-william-ross-john-williams/

 

He rather liked the score, as he says on the conclusion:

 

Quote

As you can see, in my opinion there’s a lot to like here, and it’s to the credit of both Natalie Holt and William Ross that their music exists side-by-side without much of a clear delineation between the two writing styles, beyond Holt’s more expansive use of electronic textures and synth sweetening. I have read criticisms of Holt’s music in numerous places, calling it ‘insufferably generic’ and other vague pejoratives, but I don’t hear that at all, and considering the creative handcuffs she had to wear while composing much of this, I am very impressed with how much variation, scope, and depth she brought to the project – from the lightness and prettiness of her Obi Wan and Leia theme to the crushing ferocity of her Vader/Stormtrooper theme, and the different textures and styles that represent the different planets. When you add this to the classic orchestral sound of Ross’s writing, and the numerous interpolations of Willliams’s brilliant and memorable main theme, there isn’t much to criticize in terms of it being good music.

In context, though, that’s a different matter, and I remain baffled by the creative decisions that the director, the producers, and seemingly John Williams himself took to limit the use of the legacy Star Wars themes. In the end it might have been better if they had simply gone fully one way or fully the other – either let Natalie Holt go full Ludwig Göransson and create an entirely new sonic world, or let William Ross score the whole thing using all the John Williams legacy themes in the classic Star Wars style. The hybrid model we have, while absolutely enjoyable as a listening experience, is ultimately damaging to the dramatic narrative development of the actual story, and that’s basically unforgivable.