Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (Score in the film) - SPOILERS ALLOWED!

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

7 minutes ago, Quppa said:

love Helena's Theme, but am I the only one who thinks it doesn't really match its namesake? In the concert suite it conveys a sense of longing and romance, but the character in the film evokes neither of those things (just as well, given her relationship to Indy). Of course the theme is extremely versatile and works well integrated into action cues.

 

I think it's more about how Helena romanticizes her adventurous lifestyle

[Andy 4,141]

1 hour ago, Gustavo Joseph said:

I'm just so curious to listen to the NY piano-heavy chase music, sounded really interesting in the movie.

 

I have a feeling it is in small chunks rather than a continuous cue, at least in the film mix.  There's lots of source music and crowd reactions where the chase music stops.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

1 minute ago, Andy said:

 

I have a feeling it is in small chunks rather than a continuous cue, at least in the film mix.  There's lots of source music and crowd reactions where the chase music stops.

Which is ironically (or not) a very 70s way of scoring the scene

[Quppa 117]

34 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

I think it's more about how Helena romanticizes her adventurous lifestyle

 

Interesting angle and I guess it works by the end of the film, even though initially she's overtly cynical and just after money.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

It's ultimately about how much fun she had 

[Datameister 2,044]

The theme barely has any big, schmaltzy renditions in the film, as I recall. Its presence is usually pretty subdued. I interpret the bigger, more romantic settings as reflecting JW's own musical tastes more than anything. He did the same for Marion and Willie, not to mention Leia. There's a "the theme is about how the dude sees her" argument to be made, but ultimately, I think it's just JW writing in an idiom he enjoys and that pays homage to the film's inspirations.

[igger6 894]

2 hours ago, Datameister said:

I think it's just JW writing in an idiom he enjoys and that pays homage to the film's inspirations.

 

Two other interesting elements here: for one thing, this one is not for a love interest, so it's not playing the same role that Marion's and Willie's themes (and maybe "The Austrian Way") play, or fitting into the same slot in the film's mosaic of archetypes.  It's cool to have this melody in the score, and JW does incredible things with it, but its concert form is even more at odds with Helena's character than is Marion's (which could, as noted, plausibly describe Indy's feelings) or Willie's (which could plausibly describe her simplistic view of romance).  Honestly, the script doesn't do much to establish even a familial love for Helena within Indy, something it could have accomplished with another flashback (or even a bit more time spent on the existing flashback to her childhood).  A few nods in that direction could have explained the Golden Age love theme approach for the character.

 

The second oddity is that this type of theme was clearly Mangold's request, per both his and Williams' claims.  He must have just wanted that kind of Marion-type music in the film, which again makes it weird that he didn't provide any relationship in the story that demands music in that mode.

 

Months ago someone here (perhaps in jest) theorized that Helena was going to be some sort of reincarnation of Helen of Troy, an idea that kept haunting me into the theater, justifying the musical approach in a way the actual story never did.

[BrotherSound 2,242]

Finally saw the film. A couple moments I wanted to call out:

 

The very opening would make a great FYC track. Love the deep chime right on the title card!

 

The film version of the Tuk Tuk sequence has a fantastic version of the Raiders B-theme, it’s only action-mode appearance in the score.

 

The ending of the Tuk Tuk In Tangiers track actually shows up much later in the film, when they drive the wedding car chasing after Teddy, but doesn’t appear during the Tuk Tuk chase. Tracking or JW combining music from different scenes in one album track?

[BB-8 3,481]

Did anyone else feel Jaws 2 intro vibes during the diving scenes (Water Ballet)?

 

And I thought those eels sounded a bit like mynocks.

 

And whose theme is this?

 

 

[Gustavo Joseph 29]

10 hours ago, Quppa said:

I love Helena's Theme, but am I the only one who thinks it doesn't really match its namesake? In the concert suite it conveys a sense of longing and romance, but the character in the film evokes neither of those things (just as well, given her relationship to Indy). Of course the theme is extremely versatile and works well integrated into action cues.

 

Marion's Theme is similar in not really reflecting the strong and tough nature of the character as presented in Raiders of the Lost Ark, but Dan Golding in the Art of the Score podcast (starts at ~30:00) posits a compelling theory that it works if one considers it to represent 'Indiana thinking of Marion'. I don't know if I can think of an explanation like that for Helena's Theme.

 

(The hosts of UnderScore made similar comments about Marion's theme in this episode (~12:30).)

Before watching the movie I thought the theme sounded really anacronic, after all it's a 1960's woman, but she's photographed and dressed up as woman from the 1930's , and I guess Williams reacted to that, and he's right as usual: fits the movie perfectly. 

[Andy 4,141]

@BB-8 I think JW’s use of harp and the title Water Ballet recalls the “Ballet for Divers” from Jaws 2. 
 

Am I crazy or for the eel reveal, is the pizzicato the same as that of the Raiders tarantulas, but with additional percussion?

[karelm 2,914]

I think Spielberg left a clue that Indiana Jone's successor will be our Johnny.  He looks great in the fedora I think.

 

[Andy 4,141]

He really does wear it well.  I could see him wearing the seaplane grey one too. 

[BB-8 3,481]

29 minutes ago, karelm said:

I think Spielberg left a clue that Indiana Jone's successor will be our Johnny.  He looks great in the fedora I think.

 

 

So did Mangold...there are rumours that it was neither Harrison Ford, nor Phoebe, nor Archimedes who snatched the hat off the washing line at the end of DoD...

[Andy 4,141]

Top Men?

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

I was wondering if anyone knew what was the instrument playing a couple of notes when Hauke and Teddy fall from the wooden bridge into the water. It sounds like an electric guitar which is kinda of weird given it's the only moment there's something like it in the whole movie.

[John F 100]

On 3/7/2023 at 12:56 AM, TolkienSS said:

 

I have to say, sadly, this is one of the worst assembled JW sountracks of his career.

Like, why the hell put the end credits as a "prologue", and cut the actual prologue down to 4 minutes of rerecorded temp?

EXACTLY my thoughts. For as great as Williams is he is the worst when it comes to his album assemblies. He doesn’t know what his fans want. 

[BB-8 3,481]

1 hour ago, May the Force be with You said:

I was wondering if anyone knew what was the instrument playing a couple of notes when Hauke and Teddy fall from the wooden bridge into the water. It sounds like an electric guitar which is kinda of weird given it's the only moment there's something like it in the whole movie.

Perhaps a dulcimer of some kind?

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

15 hours ago, Datameister said:

The theme barely has any big, schmaltzy renditions in the film, as I recall. Its presence is usually pretty subdued. I interpret the bigger, more romantic settings as reflecting JW's own musical tastes more than anything. He did the same for Marion and Willie, not to mention Leia. There's a "the theme is about how the dude sees her" argument to be made, but ultimately, I think it's just JW writing in an idiom he enjoys and that pays homage to the film's inspirations.

 

I also think you could make the case that Williams writing the theme in that way, in addition to stuff like bringing ASM in for a different recording of the theme, is what makes the project interesting for him. Getting to write stuff that is more creatively challenging while also leaning more into that concert space that he already seems more geared towards at this point in his life is what probably helps make these projects worthwhile for him at this point in his life.

[BB-8 3,481]

Is it Don Williams on timps?

 

Judging by the sound it is.

[Jilal 569]

15 minutes ago, BB-8 said:

Is it Don Williams on timps?

 

Judging by the sound it is.

 

How can you tell?

 

Don is indeed credited as a musician, see here.

[BB-8 3,481]

5 minutes ago, Jilal said:

 

How can you tell?

By comparing the timp sound on recent Star Wars OST where Don Williams was rather prominent.

 

There are timp players that stand out and can be identified on recordings, e.g. the former principal timp of the Philharmonia London, Andy Smith.

[Jilal 569]

Wouldn't the sound reflect the type of timpani and recording techniques used rather than the musician playing them?

[BB-8 3,481]

 

I think I can read Donald Williams here:

 

[Andy 4,141]

I want the timpani music as the Nazi boat shows up alongside the diving boat. That was sublime in the film. 

[BB-8 3,481]

4 minutes ago, Jilal said:

Wouldn't the sound reflect the type of timpani and recording techniques used rather than the musician playing them?

Not if it's an exceptional player like in the case of Andy Smith who seemed to be adding his own extra thrust no matter who was conducting.

 

Don Williams is rather impressive I think.

[Tydirium 1,167]

14 minutes ago, BB-8 said:

 

I think I can read Donald Williams here:

 

 

Well as @Jilal said, he is credited as a musician...

[Jilal 569]

34 minutes ago, Andy said:

I want the timpani music as the Nazi boat shows up alongside the diving boat. That was sublime in the film. 

 

You mean this?

 

 

Just kidding! I agree, that was a pretty cool moment.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

3 hours ago, May the Force be with You said:

I was wondering if anyone knew what was the instrument playing a couple of notes when Hauke and Teddy fall from the wooden bridge into the water. It sounds like an electric guitar which is kinda of weird given it's the only moment there's something like it in the whole movie.

 

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but the only things that really stand out there are two anvil hits.

 

Not sure if this is what you meant:

 

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

That's exactly what I meant. It really disturbed me the first time I've watched, I thought it was some kind of phone ringing in the theater

[BB-8 3,481]

1 hour ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but the only things that really stand out there are two anvil hits.

 

Not sure if this is what you meant:

Could it be something like this?

 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

43 minutes ago, BB-8 said:

Could it be something like this?

 

I don't think so. Very often in similar scenes John will have a few high-pitched anvil hits exactly like this, I think sometimes paired with high piano clusters (possibly what we're hearing here).

[Faleel 5,359]

2 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but the only things that really stand out there are two anvil hits.

 

Not sure if this is what you meant:

This clip makes it sound like some kind of boat.

[King Mark 3,631]

I saw the film a second time in a regular cinema (not imax) and I could hear the music better.

 

The standout unreleased music are:

 

-Indy on the Train Roof . At least 4-5 minutes or original action music

-School Relic Room: Mysterious music as Indy shows Helena the dial

-School Relic Room Escape :Action cue

-Indy rides the Horse :70's style action music

-Tuktuk in Tangiers Part 2 :At least 4-5 minutes action music with Raiders march variations

-Archimedes Tomb Part 2: Climactic part of the cue as Voller assembles the dial

-Flight towards the Fissure: Lots of Nazi themes ending with KoTCs music re-use

-Syracuse Battle Part 2: I heard an unreleased version of Archimedes theme in there.

-End credits: about 3 minutes of unreleased Nazi themes

 

There's probably a lot more I can't remember

 

 

 

 

[Bellosh 3,419]

12 minutes ago, King Mark said:

I saw the film a second time in a regular cinema (not imax) and I could hear the music better.

 

The standout unreleased music are:

 

-Indy on the Train Roof . At least 4-5 minutes or original action music

-School Relic Room: Mysterious music as Indy shows Helena the dial

-School Relic Room Escape :Action cue

-Indy rides the Horse :70's style action music

-Tuktuk in Tangiers Part 2 :At least 4-5 minutes action music with Raiders march variations

-Archimedes Tomb Part 2: Climactic part of the cue as Voller assembles the dial

-Flight towards the Fissure: Lots of Nazi themes leading to KoTCs music re-use

-Syracuse Battle Part 2: I heard an unrelased version of Archimedes theme in there.

 

There's probably a lot more I can't remember

 

 

 

 

 

did you stay for the end credits? was there different music that plays after the prologue bit in the end credits?

[King Mark 3,631]

yeah I forgot .Those could be film cues edited in there though

 

There was another cue with unreleased Helena's Theme variations but I forget where

[crumbs 14,318]

3 hours ago, King Mark said:

School Relic Room: Mysterious music as Indy shows Helena the dial

 

Isn't this on the album? Second half of Voller Returns.

 

I'd say at least half of the unreleased music from the New York scenes is temp-tracked material from MR and WOTW.

[BrotherSound 2,242]

7 hours ago, BB-8 said:

Is it Don Williams on timps?

 

Judging by the sound it is.

Pretty sure it’s Don throughout, except for perhaps a few passages that sound like they may be doubled with a second timpanist, likely Greg Goodall, who I believed played all the 2nd timpani on The Rise of Skywalker and The Lost World.

[karelm 2,914]

15 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

I don't think so. Very often in similar scenes John will have a few high-pitched anvil hits exactly like this, I think sometimes paired with high piano clusters (possibly what we're hearing here).

That's exactly what I'm hearing.  Just a high piano cluster and remember it caught my ear as well in the theater too.  For those who saw the film, was it extremely loud (painfully so) or just my theater?

11 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

Pretty sure it’s Don throughout, except for perhaps a few passages that sound like they may be doubled with a second timpanist, likely Greg Goodall, who I believed played all the 2nd timpani on The Rise of Skywalker and The Lost World.

 

It's definitely Don.  Not just the sound but his level of involvement plus Don has done all of Johnny's LA soundtracks.  I was surprised to see Jerry wasn't on this one.  

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Really love Battle of Syracuse.  It's more in the gritty Spartacus sound than something like Ben-Hur but it's cool to see JW tackle a scene like that (a natural choice for DOD highlight playlists).

[Laserschwert 475]

I was really surprised by the amount of LC music in the prologue. I've constantly heard bits of "On the Tank" and the LC Nazi theme.

[crocodile 8,018]

Having seen the film for the second time after hearing the album, I have to say I am not very impressed with the 67-minute programme. It's not so much about the stuff that's on the album but more about how much good stuff is missing. Seems like the presentation is micro-edited to hell and back. There's lots missing. Absolutely loved the thriller NYC segment and almost none of it is on the album. The the entire climax from the Archimedes's tomb scene until the end is so good in the film. Not to mention they removed quite a lot of Indy's theme from major sequences. This simply is not sufficient to do this score any justice. I had a sense of storytelling clarity in the film that doesn't translate well to whatever Williams produced for his album.

 

Also, the first music we hear in the film is the same material we hear in the prologue track starting from 1:07.

 

Karol

[Tydirium 1,167]

1 hour ago, crocodile said:

Having seen the film for the second time after hearing the album, I have to say I am not very impressed with the 67-minute programme. It's not so much about the stuff that's on the album but more about how much good stuff is missing. Seems like the presentation is micro-edited to hell and back. There's lots missing. Absolutely loved the thriller NYC segment and almost none of it is on the album. The the entire climax from the Archimedes's tomb scene until the end is so good in the film. Not to mention they removed quite a lot of Indy's theme from major sequences. This simply is not sufficient to do this score any justice.

 

Karol

Couldn’t agree more. I was encouraged by some of the early reviews here saying that the album had all the good stuff and there weren’t any “Holy Grails” missing, but then when I went and saw the film I couldn’t believe how much good stuff was in the opening flashback sequence! We’re missing TONS of great music from this score. I don’t even care if a decent amount of it is re-recordings of music from the original films; it’s still different enough that it would have been nice to have. But even aside from the reused stuff, there were multiple thrilling new action cues which still didn’t make it onto the OST. I really don’t get it.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

1 hour ago, Tydirium said:

was encouraged by some of the early reviews here saying that the album had all the good stuff and there weren’t any “Holt Grails” missing,

[Tydirium 1,167]

19 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

 

Fixed. 

[BrotherSound 2,242]

2 hours ago, crocodile said:

Also, the first music we hear in the film is the same material we hear in the prologue track starting from 1:07.

It’s similar, but not quite the same. For instance, the film version has a loud chime right on the title card.

[Edmilson 7,470]

14 minutes ago, BrotherSound said:

It’s similar, but not quite the same. For instance, the film version has a loud chime right on the title card.

Maybe the OST version is an alternate of the film version? Wouldn't be the first time for Johnny.

[Alex 2,835]

I desperately want to hear a clean version of the NYC chase music. It just sounds so different to the rest of the score. I’d be really interested to hear about that choice.

[crumbs 14,318]

Has anyone pointed out that a fragment of Water Ballet is used in the film for the scene where the planes lose control after breaching the time fissure?

 

 

 

However, I don't think this is OST editing trickery – the same music appears in the film for the eels sequence:

 

 

Starting to wonder if the film version of the time fissure scene is all tracked? Not only does the fragment of Spell of the Skull (as they're entering the fissure) sound almost identical to the KOCS recording, but it appears the following scene is tracked with music from Water Ballet.

[King Mark 3,631]

Your the first one that found this. At least we have some of this cue but probably some of the actual underwater cue is unreleased