Popular Post TownerFan 4,983 Posted March 31, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2021 New (I guess) interview with legendary sound designer and film editor Ben Burtt, mostly focused on music and the differences of mixing music in the old days vs. today. He mentions JW several times. https://mediasoundhamburg.de/en/of-vaders-and-raiders Interesting stuff! Ludwig, Quintus, GerateWohl and 6 others 5 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crumbs 14,319 Posted March 31, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2021 Quote The Empire Strikes Back allowed places for entire musical statements to be made in its entirety. You don’t see that nowadays. They don’t do it in the current Star Wars films. When they first introduced Vader in The Empire Strikes Back and you play the entire march all the way through it’s a really powerful and strong musical moment. There is no dialogue. There are some sound effects but it’s just a little concert. One thing I love about it was the way the earlier films in particular were cut to allow certain themes to be introduced clearly without conflict. That’s something we have forgotten about in our more hyperactive movie making of these days. They never stop and let something just play. Certainly not in the Star Wars films. Quote One of the biggest differences I hear – and I am talking about the big action pictures now – is that so many times the orchestra and the brass are doing some fanfares and some busy notes, all pulled down under the dialogue. You are not getting the value of the music. It was probably written when the scene was different but they are just not paying attention to the orchestration. Quote A lot of music cues you could just move around and no one would notice the difference. I hate saying that. I would fail with my guessing games now completely. The music is not really written for the scene I hear it in. It’s just there. I am all cynical about it. Amen, brother. Quote I won’t mention any film maker’s names but there have been spotting sessions for the music when they said: ‘Score the whole movie and we will figure it out later.’ That’s a dangerous comment to make. Can't imagine who he's referring to here... Quote We worked on Star Trek movie a couple of years ago. Michael Giacchino was the composer. J.J. Abrams would just change his mind and they would have to go back and write a whole new cue. It cost a fortune. It cost millions of dollars because they recorded some cues three or four times. Somebody paid for that. It wasn’t pleasant for the composer at all. MikeH, Edmilson, Evanus and 8 others 9 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,373 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 I was quite surprised that Empire has less music than Star Wars. Why has SW then the shortest score length. Is the film so much shorter? I mean, the whole Yavin sequence has no score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rick 1,157 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 7 minutes ago, GerateWohl said: I mean, the whole Yavin sequence has no score. Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,373 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 Just now, ATXHusker said: Huh? Not the space battle, but all the scenes in the rebel base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rick 1,157 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 Ahh, OK gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,532 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 50 minutes ago, crumbs said: They don’t do it in the current Star Wars films. When they first introduced Vader in The Empire Strikes Back and you play the entire march all the way through it’s a really powerful and strong musical moment. You mean the replacement with an edit of the concert piece? Edmilson and Brando 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433 Posted March 31, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2021 17 minutes ago, GerateWohl said: I was quite surprised that Empire has less music than Star Wars. Why has SW then the shortest score length. Is the film so much shorter? I mean, the whole Yavin sequence has no score. I think a lot of the music, especially on the beginning of ESB, are not featured in the movie. The Hoth's part are much more shorter if I recall correctly in the movie. Now to compare them perfectly I have only one thing to say: RELEASE THE STAR WARS JOHN WILLIAMS COLLECTION tmarps, Chewy, GerateWohl and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,532 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 6 minutes ago, Raiders of the SoundtrArk said: I think a lot of the music, especially on the beginning of ESB, are not featured in the movie. The Hoth's part are much more shorter if I recall correctly in the movie. Yes, ESB has a lot of unused cues or parts of cues, often for the better. Raiders of the SoundtrArk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,374 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 John Williams definitely wrote and recorded much more music for The Empire Strikes Back than he did for Star Wars In the Star Wars film itself, very little of what was recorded ended up getting edited out or dropped; Most of it is used as intended In the Empire Strikes Back movie though, a lot of the music that he recorded was not used; Many portions of cues were dialed down, cues were edited, portions of cues were replaced with music heard elsewhere in the film, etc I never looked at the numbers to see how many minutes of music remain in each film's theatrical cut. But I am fairly confident TESB still has more Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,360 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 44 minutes ago, Holko said: Yes, ESB has a lot of unused cues or parts of cues, often for the better. A lot of the arguably poor decisions were reversed for the SE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,532 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 Yeah replacing some of those Imp March bits with the concert piece again was just weird. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,374 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 A weird and pointless change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew 590 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 Quote We worked on Star Trek movie a couple of years ago. Michael Giacchino was the composer. J.J. Abrams would just change his mind and they would have to go back and write a whole new cue. It cost a fortune. It cost millions of dollars because they recorded some cues three or four times. Somebody paid for that. It wasn’t pleasant for the composer at all. #ReleaseTheStarTrekDeluxeDeluxeEdition bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Ware 526 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 Burtt started from scratch on Star Trek. They had an almost complete mix which was thrown out quite late in post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Manakin Skywalker 4,897 Posted March 31, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2021 It's quite clear to me, and I imagine everyone else as well, that JJ Abrams has severe ADHD. You watch an interview with him and he's jumping from one thing to the next, talking so fast that he's constantly stuttering. Whether he's been clinically diagnosed and medicated however I have no idea. EDIT: Literally just saw this relevant clip while watching Family Guy: JJ Abrams on Family Guy - video Dailymotion Holko, MikeH and TheUlyssesian 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,315 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 😉 Quintus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oierem 152 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 17 hours ago, GerateWohl said: I was quite surprised that Empire has less music than Star Wars. That's definitely not accurate. There is far less music in Star Wars than in Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Arpy 4,145 Posted April 1, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 1, 2021 The J.J. rewrite tidbit is crazy when considering the money involved, but not surprising after the Sequel Trilogy changes he forced upon Williams. Quote One of the biggest differences I hear – and I am talking about the big action pictures now – is that so many times the orchestra and the brass are doing some fanfares and some busy notes, all pulled down under the dialogue. You are not getting the value of the music. It was probably written when the scene was different but they are just not paying attention to the orchestration. This is one of my biggest issues with current blockbuster scores - esp. the Tom Holkenborg/Zimmer-types - there's a lot of noise going on and none of it really contributes anything to the picture and actively fights the sound effects which are already a symphony of catastrophe... TSMefford, Tom Guernsey and Edmilson 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 This is a great bit of insight from Burtt. He knows his shit. I've also never took any notice of the popular and overzealous view that reckons Ben purposely drowns out the music in order to showcase his sound effects. His words in this interview more than rubbish that stupid notion. Evanus and TSMefford 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,315 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 10 minutes ago, Quintus said: I've also never took any notice of the popular and overzealous view that reckons Ben purposely drowns out the music in order to showcase his sound effects. His words in this interview more than rubbish that stupid notion. Right. My meme was satirising the fans you refer.to.😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Quote We worked on Star Trek movie a couple of years ago. Michael Giacchino was the composer. J.J. Abrams would just change his mind and they would have to go back and write a whole new cue. It cost a fortune. It cost millions of dollars because they recorded some cues three or four times. Somebody paid for that. It wasn’t pleasant for the composer at all. It's a miracle Williams finished the whole sequel trilogy. He surely wanted it done by himself, but working with JJ must have been exhausting. crumbs and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Well, Abrams is a pretty terrible director. Edmilson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeH 768 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Burtt has a model plane, a Nieuport fighter aircraft, dangling from the ceiling; there’s a miniature cutout of Force Awakens director J.J. Abrams standing in it, waving anachronistically from the cockpit. “Matt [Wood] put that there to torment me. I came in one day and he’s flying my plane.” https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/ben-burtt-star-wars-sound/amp Holko and crumbs 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Datameister 2,044 Posted April 1, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 1, 2021 I appreciate his candor in the interview. It's not the first time he's publicly expressed confusion and disappointment about Disney leaving him out, and that makes me sad. While I spend a lot more time listening to Williams music on its own than Burtt sound effects on their own, I think the two men's sonic contributions to the OT and PT are equally iconic and equally important to the success of the films. I wish I knew why only Williams was invited back. Don't get me wrong, I think the sound design in the ST is perfectly serviceable. But to be frank, the only elements that stand out in my memory are Kylo's ragged saber hum and voice filtering, and BB-8's speech. (And as effective as the latter is, it was literally done with default settings on a $2 iPad app.) The OT and PT both feature huge numbers of unique and memorable sounds. bruce marshall, Will, crumbs and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,373 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 I was always dissapointed with the new sounds of the blaster shots. The sound from the OT was so cool. I was pleased to hear that in one episode from the Mandalorian season 2 the director obviously re-used the old sound. I forgot which episode it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Ruined most of the greatest soundtracks ever made. God I hate that noise put there above that brilliant music. Please give us those isolated scores. Remco 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,315 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Datameister said: I appreciate his candor in the interview. It's not the first time he's publicly expressed confusion and disappointment about Disney leaving him out, and that makes me sad. While I spend a lot more time listening to Williams music on its own than Burtt sound effects on their own, I think the two men's sonic contributions to the OT and PT are equally iconic and equally important to the success of the films. I wish I knew why only Williams was invited back. Don't get me wrong, I think the sound design in the ST is perfectly serviceable. But to be frank, the only elements that stand out in my memory are Kylo's ragged saber hum and voice filtering, and BB-8's speech. (And as effective as the latter is, it was literally done with default settings on a $2 iPad app.) The OT and PT both feature huge numbers of unique and memorable sounds. But he worked on TFA, didnt he? Or was he just a consultant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,315 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 9 minutes ago, T.RASK said: Ruined most of the greatest soundtracks ever made. God I hate that noise put there above that brilliant music. Please give us those isolated scores. Oh I get it! You are playing an April Fools joke on us. You don't really think Burtt " ruined" films. Excellent prank post!😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Oh so busted!! 🤔🤔😜😜😎😎 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 2 hours ago, T.RASK said: Ruined most of the greatest soundtracks ever made. God I hate that noise put there above that brilliant music. Please give us those isolated scores. Didn't even read the interview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 Quote One of the biggest differences I hear – and I am talking about the big action pictures now – is that so many times the orchestra and the brass are doing some fanfares and some busy notes, all pulled down under the dialogue. You are not getting the value of the music. It was probably written when the scene was different Little does he know the god of modern film music Hansy writes away from picture and has directors who put the music in the film anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 3 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said: But he worked on TFA, didnt he? Or was he just a consultant? I'm pretty sure he just did some very light consulting. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellosh 3,419 Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 Quote The Empire Strikes Back allowed places for entire musical statements to be made in its entirety. You don’t see that nowadays. They don’t do it in the current Star Wars films. When they first introduced Vader in The Empire Strikes Back and you play the entire march all the way through it’s a really powerful and strong musical moment. There is no dialogue. There are some sound effects but it’s just a little concert. One thing I love about it was the way the earlier films in particular were cut to allow certain themes to be introduced clearly without conflict. That’s something we have forgotten about in our more hyperactive movie making of these days. They never stop and let something just play. Certainly not in the Star Wars films. I agree with this immensely. I do think Rey's introduction in the TFA captured that powerful musical moment that is allowed to breathe on scene. Will and Holko 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 I initially thought this thread said "Ben Burtt talks John Williams and sausage of music in films". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Arpy 4,145 Posted April 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Bellosh said: I agree with this immensely. I do think Rey's introduction in the TFA captured that powerful musical moment that is allowed to breathe on scene. Aside from the opening chimes, the first statement of her theme is marred by an obnoxious speeder sound effect in the film. That really pissed me off. crumbs, Remco and Will 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,319 Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 42 minutes ago, Arpy said: Aside from the opening chimes, the first statement of her theme is marred by an obnoxious speeder sound effect in the film. That really pissed me off. Yep. That whole sequence should be a musical highlight for Rey but the music barely registers in the mix. Even the wide shot of the Star Destroyer doesn't highlight the music the way it should (because we need wind and distant engine sounds to be just as prominent, obviously). Such a wasted opportunity. By the time he reached TROS he didn't even bother showcasing the music. Will and Remco 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Datameister 2,044 Posted April 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 2, 2021 I really disagree. I immediately thought of that bit in TFA as a counterexample for Burtt's (still largely correct) claim that the films are keeping the music firmly in the background these days. There are some sound effects, sure, but the soundscape is dominated by Williams introducing almost all of Rey's thematic material. It's very in-your-face, in the best way. I also remember hearing the introduction of Kylo's theme and immediately going, "Oh yeah, that's got to be Kylo's theme." The music takes center stage there too, albeit for a sadly abbreviated moment. mrbellamy, Will, Fabulin and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 How much was Williams' choice versus the editors is the question and how Abrams and any other creative on this film can tout Williams' involvement whilst simultaneously burying it under inane noises... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 I've never understood that attitude. Movies have non-musical sounds in them. In fact, out of all the sounds in most movies, the music is the least essential overall. Sound design and foley establish the reality of the scene. And dialogue is important for obvious reasons. To be clear, film scores are my favorite musical genre. When it's a good score, I usually return to it far more often than I return to the film. I absolutely love it when a film makes room at the right times for the music to shine with little or no sonic competition, and I share Mr. Burtt's disappointment with how rare those moments are these days. But any half-decent film composer has got to know that their job is to create something that'll sit well in the mix. Williams certainly knows it. There are a lot of crafts involved in filmmaking and they should all complement each other, not compete. Jay and igger6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothless 964 Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 Aaaand that's it, I'm depressed as hell about the state of movie making with regards to music. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TownerFan 4,983 Posted April 2, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted April 2, 2021 What I liked about this interview is Burtt's no-nonsense attitude and being completely frank, which is something you don't usually get from industry people. I guess he's at a point now where he can openly talk about his likes and dislikes without worrying about getting his next job. His remarks about the use of music in current movies is so true that it really shows how much of a radical change Hollywood movies and its scores have gone through the last 20 years. He's honest enought to admit that even the Prequels suffered because of some of those choices of quick editing and taking out breathing space for the music to make its statement. I never thought Burtt was particulary offensive toward Williams' music in his mixing or editing. There were surely some arguments during the prequels about it (isn't there somewhere a clip with him and Ken Wannberg discussing the music volume during the dubbing of Episode 3?), but overall music is often the primary element on the soundtrack (after dialogue). What made me sad after reading this piece however is the undeniable feeling that a certain way of making movies (and how to score them) is definitely a thing of the past. MikeH, Will and crumbs 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Arpy 4,145 Posted April 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 2, 2021 4 hours ago, Datameister said: I've never understood that attitude. Movies have non-musical sounds in them. In fact, out of all the sounds in most movies, the music is the least essential overall. Sound design and foley establish the reality of the scene. And dialogue is important for obvious reasons. Fuck the reality of a scene! Music if given room to breathe like it has in the past can say much more than sound effects could, it supports the narrative, can give momentum and size to action scenes or any moment in a film. When I see something explode, I can already imagine the sounds it will make because I've heard them a bazillion times before and these days instead of being immersed in a scene through sound design, I've become quite irritated that every second of a film is filled with noise that doesn't need to be there! I like sound effects, but when they cover up the artistry of the score, they muddle the soundtrack and become tiresome. Will, crumbs, Holko and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crumbs 14,319 Posted April 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 2, 2021 30 minutes ago, Arpy said: I've become quite irritated that every second of a film is filled with noise that doesn't need to be there! So this. Your brain fills in the blanks with sound effects. If you see characters walking but don't hear footsteps, your brain joins the dots. This is because everyone hears footsteps every day and learns to tune it out. The same with starting your car engine. Do you need Rey's speeder to blast noise in your face and drown out everything in the mix to convey something that, through visuals alone, is plainly obvious? Your brain doesn't fill in the blanks with music; it's an intangible force that touches you emotionally. It doesn't "exist" in the real world like sound does. Films are absurdly overpopulated with sound now. Every decade engineers at Dolby "revolutionise" sound by adding a few extra audio channels. In response, sound editors overpopulate films with more noise. It's counterproductive to the art of filmmaking when it becomes sensory overload. In much the same way an over-reliance on CGI made VFX far less interesting. If I want to experience the reality of sound, I'll go stand in a shopping center with a blindfold on and just listen for an hour. That doesn't mean films should reflect such reality. Frankly, both film music and sound design are becoming lost arts in this senseless pursuit of technological "advancement." Massive props to Burtt for being so honest (and so right) about the shortcoming of modern filmmaking trends. Arpy, Will, MikeH and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeH 768 Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 15 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said: But he worked on TFA, didnt he? Or was he just a consultant? This article details it a bit. He says they told him to just stay in his room, send sounds, and they’ll figure out what to do with them. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/ben-burtt-star-wars-sound/amp 1 hour ago, Arpy said: Fuck the reality of a scene! Music if given room to breathe like it has in the past can say much more than sound effects could, it supports the narrative, can give momentum and size to action scenes or any moment in a film. When I see something explode, I can already imagine the sounds it will make because I've heard them a bazillion times before and these days instead of being immersed in a scene through sound design, I've become quite irritated that every second of a film is filled with noise that doesn't need to be there! I like sound effects, but when they cover up the artistry of the score, they muddle the soundtrack and become tiresome. It’s like those new 5.1 or 7.1 remixes of older films. It’s almost always the case that the sound effects are increased in volume, new ones are added, and the score is turned way down. Jaws has such an aggressive mono track. Even though the 5.1 remix has the benefit of having JW’s score in stereo, it’s so wimpy because they simply don’t know what to do with the music levels. Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,373 Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 What I found interesting was Burtt's statement, that filmmakers today don't look at the film without even giving it a chance to work without sound and music by immediately putting temptracks on it. That is surely a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Quintus 5,399 Posted April 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 2, 2021 I particularly liked the part where he said newer filmmakers bring in the music too soon and "short circuit" the scene. I knew exactly what he meant. crumbs, MikeH and GerateWohl 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 2 hours ago, TownerFan said: What I liked about this interview is Burtt's no-nonsense attitude and being completely frank, which is something you don't usually get from industry people. I guess he's at a point now where he can openly talk about his likes and dislikes without worrying about getting his next job. His remarks about the use of music in current movies is so true that it really shows how much of a radical change Hollywood movies and its scores have gone through the last 20 years. He's honest enought to admit that even the Prequels suffered because of some of those choices of quick editing and taking out breathing space for the music to make its statement. I never thought Burtt was particulary offensive toward Williams' music in his mixing or editing. There were surely some arguments during the prequels about it (isn't there somewhere a clip with him and Ken Wannberg discussing the music volume during the dubbing of Episode 3?), but overall music is often the primary element on the soundtrack (after dialogue). What made me sad after reading this piece however is the undeniable feeling that a certain way of making movies (and how to score them) is definitely a thing of the past. Yep, that's a great clip: MikeH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeH 768 Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 What Burtt said about only having to answer to one person (George) in the past is the same story I’ve heard from other composers. John Barry said the same thing about Saltzman/Broccoli, that, love them or hate them, at the end of the day when you left their office you knew where you stood. Now you’re getting phone calls and notes from every corner. On his Spider-Man movie, Horner said he had to deal with a boardroom full of people who all had their own opinion on what the music should be. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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