Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (Disney Records Original Soundtrack Album) - NO FILM SPOILERS!

[JTN 2,036]

42 minutes ago, Brando said:

I suppose in a way it’s meant to make you feel the adventure is really over

The adventure was over in 1989 and again in 2008. Little did Williams know in ‘89 that there was going to be a 4th film, or in ‘08 that there was going to be a 5th, yet he ended the scores with the Raiders March.
 

 

 

[Dr. Know 326]

2 hours ago, Bellosh said:

 

Did you place New York 1969 again at the very end too?  I'd love to do something similar but I just wish we had a more subtle intro (similar to KOTCS finale) into the raiders march in the DoD sound.

 

I feel weird having an Indy end credits not end with the raiders march 😭

No, I didn't place the Raiders March at the very end.  I just wanted to recreate the end credits as heard in the film, which ends with the Archimedes theme.

[Edmilson 7,468]

I'm a little torn on a matter: on one hand, I love how the Prologue acts like one of those overtures from old movies to the album, introducing the new themes and ideas that will be developed in later tracks. It's a better way to open the album than just go straight to Germany, 1944 (the thought of opening the OST with the actual first cue of the movie didn't even cross your mind, right, Johnny? )

 

On the other, I do miss a more traditional end credits suite, particularly one ending with the March. 

 

Also, I'm happy to inform that the climactic tracks finally clicked with me after listening to the album this afternoon. I loved the North-esque Battle of Syracuse, kinda like what JW would've done if he scored one of those old school epics about Romans and Greeks. He probably had a lot of fun referencing his old masters.

[Damien F 1,742]

30 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I'm a little torn on a matter: on one hand, I love how the Prologue acts like one of those overtures from old movies to the album, introducing the new themes and ideas that will be developed in later tracks. It's a better way to open the album than just go straight to Germany, 1944 (the thought of opening the OST with the actual first cue of the movie didn't even cross your mind, right, Johnny? )

Yeah, it would have been nice if Germany, 1944 contained the first cue of the score especially because it has the first statement of Indy's theme.

[Darth Mulder 154]

2 hours ago, Edmilson said:

I loved the North-esque Battle of Syracuse.

 

It's just The Lost World: Jurassic Park rip-off. Pfff 

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

Adding 1 more theme to the mix! And more notes. Suggestion Welcome!

EXPAND SPOILER TAB TO SEE TIMESTAMPS.

 

BAD GUY THEMES

 

 Nazi Might Theme

- first theme heard in the score

- scores title card

- appears during prolog flashback and present day scenes

- scores a dramatic reveal during third act

- first theme in end credits after Indy & Helena

Spoiler

Prologue to Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny 1:07 - 1:41

 

 

 

The Airport 1:05 - 1:25

 

 

 

 Nazi Spirit Theme 

- appears during prolog flashback and present day scenes

- scores a dramatic initiative by a Nazi officer in prolog flashback

- scores a very key scene where fates of multiple main characters are decided

Spoiler

Germany, 1944 3:26 - 3:36

 

 

Battle of Syracuse 2:19 - end

 

 

 

Nazi Determination Theme (Most prevalent Nazi theme)

- appears during prolog flashback and present day scenes

- most frequently used Nazi theme in present day scenes

- scores a dramatic action by the villains late in the film

Spoiler

Voller Returns 2:17 - 2:35

 

 

The Airport 1:32 - 1:51

 

 

 

Nazi Supremacy Theme

- appears during prolog flashback and present day scenes

- usually appears when the villains have captured one of the good guys

Spoiler

 

Prologue to Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny 2:37 - 2:54

 

 

 

 

Voller Theme 

- appears during prolog flashback and present day scenes

- single most frequent bad guy theme

- de facto main villain theme of the film

- in prolog flashback represents Voller

- in present day represents Voller and his goons

- represented very badly on album - in the film it is played quite frequently

Spoiler

 

Voller Returns 1:37 -  2:17

 

 

 

 

MCGUFFIN THEMES

 

Dial Of Destiny Theme

- main mcguffin theme

- appears almost every time the dial is shown on screen

- appears during prolog flashback and present day scenes

Spoiler

Voller Returns 0:41 - 1:14

 

 

Germany, 1944 2:41 - 2:59

 

 

 

Dial of Destiny Piano Motif

- appears when characters are thinking or talking about the dial

Spoiler

Voller Returns 0:36 - 0:41

 

 

 

 Antiquity Theme

- appears during discussions on ancient concepts etc

- appears in present day scenes only

Spoiler

Prologue to Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny 3:43 - 4:03

 

 

Polybius Cipher 0:40 - 0:49

 

 

 

Archimedes Theme 

- represents the Greek philosopher as he created the dial

- only heard during the third act

- people love this theme but there is a reason it doesn't appear earlier or more frequently

Spoiler

Prologue to Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny 4:08 - end (possible concert rendition)

 

 

Archimedes' Tomb 1:13 - 1:46

 

 

 

Syracuse Motif

- No spoilers!

Spoiler

Battle of Syracuse 0:51 - 1:04

 

 

[Tydirium 1,167]

Just threw this together tonight; here’s an early crack at breaking down the OST thematically (minus the final track). It’s far from perfect, and I no doubt missed some things, but just figured I’d share in case it might help:

 

01 Prologue to Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny

0:00 Helena Variant

0:08 Helena A

0:30 Helena A

1:07 Nazi Might

1:48 Voller

1:55 Nazi Determination

2:02 Nazi Determination

2:13 Nazi Determination

2:24 Nazi Determination

2:28 Nazi Supremacy

2:45 Nazi Supremacy

2:58 Nazi Spirit

3:15 Nazi Spirit

3:28 Voller

3:39 Mysterious Triplets

3:43 Antiquity

4:08 Archimedes

 

02 Helena's Theme

0:00 Helena Intro

0:10 Helena A

0:21 Helena Intro

0:40 Helena A

0:57 Helena B

1:16 Helena Variant

1:22 Helena A

1:29 Helena B

1:51 Helena Intro

2:09 Helena A

2:28 Helena B

3:03 Helena Intro

 

03 Germany, 1944

0:05 Nazi Supremacy

0:44 "On the Tank"

1:41 Nazis (ROTLA)

1:54 Raiders A

2:03 Nazis (ROTLA)

2:09 Raiders A

2:19 Nazi Supremacy

2:40 Dial of Destiny

3:13 Raiders A

3:25 Nazi Spirit

3:53 Raiders A

4:12 Raiders A

 

04 To Morocco

0:00 Raiders B

0:35 Raiders A

1:00 Mysterious Triplets

2:04 Helena Variant

2:19 Helena A

3:01 Helena A

 

05 Voller Returns

0:11 Possible Antiquity?

0:36 Mysterious Triplets

0:40 Dial of Destiny

1:21 Mysterious Triplets

1:36 Voller

2:17 Nazi Determination

2:40 Voller

 

06 Auction at Hotel L'Atlantique

1:08 Possible Voller?

2:31 Helena A

 

07 Tuk Tuk in Tangiers

0:51 Helena A

0:55 Helena A

1:00 Helena A

1:26 Helena A

2:12 Helena A

2:30 Helena A

2:42 Helena A

3:08 Helena B

 

08 To Athens

0:19 Helena Intro

0:30 Helena A

0:43 Helena Intro

1:17 Helena A

1:30 Helena B

1:48 Raiders A

 

09 Perils of the Deep

0:50 Dial of Destiny

1:43 Marion

 

10 Water Ballet

0:25 Helena Intro

4:24 Nazi Spirit

 

11 Polybius Cipher

0:08 Helena

0:40 Antiquity

0:57 Helena

1:03 Helena

1:11 Helena

2:05 Raiders A

2:20 Nazi Determination (uniquely ends with 3 chromatic notes which could refer to Voller, but are also harmonized ala the Nazi theme in TLC)

 

12 The Grafikos

0:43 Antiquity

1:01 Antiquity

1:08 Raiders A

1:38 Antiquity

 

13 Archimedes' Tomb

1:13 Archimedes

1:55 Antiquity

2:12 Mysterious Triplets

2:15 Dial of Destiny

 

14 The Airport

0:04 Helena A

0:17 Voller

0:35 Voller

0:42 Helena A

1:05 Nazi Might

1:28 Voller

1:31 Nazi Determination

1:53 Helena A

2:07 Nazi Determination (last 2 notes)

2:10 Voller

2:12 Nazi Determination

3:06 Nazi Determination (rhythm)

3:21 Helena A

3:46 Helena A

4:04 Helena A

4:28 Helena A

4:35 Helena A

 

15 Battle of Syracuse

0:46 Voller

1:04 Mysterious Triplets

1:07 Dial of Destiny

1:29 Nazi Determination (rhythm)

1:50 Helena A

2:00 Nazi Spirit

2:08 Helena A

2:20 Nazi Spirit

2:26 Nazi Spirit

2:32 Voller

 

16 Centuries Join Hands

0:23 Antiquity

0:44 Antiquity

1:03 Raiders A

1:26 Archimedes

2:11 Archimedes

2:19 Raiders A

2:47 Raiders A

 

17 New York, 1969

0:45 Marion

1:50 Helena A

2:21 Raiders A

2:53 Raiders B

3:13 Raiders A

3:34 Raiders A

 

Worth mentioning is what I tentatively called “Mysterious Triplets”; this is a figure that appears several times in the score and seems to usually show up around the Antiquity or Dial of Destiny themes.

 

EDIT: I also wanted to point out that what @TheUlyssesian has called the Nazi Spirit theme, features a three-note descending chromatic figure that is also present in Voller’s theme. These themes seem to be closely related.

 

EDIT 2: Changed my post to use TheUlysseian’s theme titles, for ease of understanding.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Archmedes theme reminds me of Bolero

[King Mark 3,631]

yeah it does actually

[crumbs 14,318]

I just realised the second map cue is the "Antiquity" motif! I thought it was incidental athematic music!

 

I kinda considered that idea an extension of Archimedes' theme (aka a B-Theme). But this works too.

[p0llux 398]

4 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

Archmedes theme reminds me of Bolero

 

Yes, because in bolero, you'll notice that in some parts of the melody it ends in a sustained note. Then when the melody picks back up, it begins with a note one whole step down, and the melody moves upward in a minor third. It's exactly what happens in Archimedes' Theme. Good observation. I heard it too initially, but I didn't really bother to look into it until today, when I was transcribing Archimedes' Theme for the other thread.

 

Here's what you're hearing below:

Bolero Clip: https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxo7q-AtuhH6Ykdqa3sti6XNCS4ghUg8_P

Archimedes Clip: https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxDoordCfFuwgrUky8Sxwi3rxtPGvFtlQz

 

[Damien F 1,742]

I absolutely love the Nazi Determination theme in The Airport especially when the snares kick in at 1:37

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

The Airport track is trully wonderfull, the passage from Nazi Determination to Helena's Theme is so clever

[Damien F 1,742]

0:04 - 0:09 of Centuries Join Hands sounds to me like it is derived from Raiders March A.

[Chen G. 3,950]

Enviable work at dissecting the motifs here, but Lor save us from these theme names! 

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

38 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Enviable work at dissecting the motifs here, but Lor save us from these theme names! 

 

😃

 

James Mangold: Johnny! Helena's theme is great. How about we do ONE theme for the bad guys and ONE theme for the mcguffin - like in the other films? 

 

John Williams: Yes! Yes! Yes! (laughs manically)

[JTN 2,036]

This woman already has the soundtrack CD.

https://twitter.com/DisneyMusicEmp/status/1675173270520463361

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

On a serious note - 

 

Did Williams go overboard with FOUR Nazi motifs? Was he specially inspired by them? Does he have Nazi memorabilia stacked up somewhere in his home that we are not aware of? 😀

 

And secondly in his big concert suite of themes - the first album track (and end credits) - he manages to get in nearly every theme and motif - except the main Dial Of Destiny theme!

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

19 hours ago, Brando said:

You’re the first person I’ve seen mention this, and I really wonder why he didn’t end the credits with the March. I suppose in a way it’s meant to make you feel the adventure is really over, any thoughts on this?

 

I think you could definitely frame the film musically as Indy having to "earn" his theme again throughout the film. After the flashback opening, it slowly trickles back to the forefront in terms of prominence. Once the film ends and cuts to black, you get hit with the full theme in its entirety as Indy has completed his arc (not ark!) and gets a last musical hurrah. After that, Williams moves past the man and focuses on recounting the adventure you just observed the man experience musically. The celebration and rush you get from hearing the Raiders March in full with the start of the credits gets diminished by getting to hear it again. Ideally, you WANT more. You don't want your time with this character to be done. But it is, and that's okay. Because the fact he and his music ever graced us at all is something to be treasured.

 

Or at least, that's one way to look at it.

[Chen G. 3,950]

44 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Did Williams go overboard with FOUR Nazi motifs?

 

Its not such a bizarre thing. There's some three motives associated with Rey, for example. By that same token, Shore has at least five different motifs just in the bassline of the Shire's music, and when Siegmund and Sieglinde get together, their music includes at least five different love motifs. The subject is the same, but each time its explored through a different musical "lens", as it were.

 

Its part of my issue with these kinds of theme names. Take the Walkure case: we have "recognition" motif, "bliss", "rapture", "embrace"...they're so arbitrary, you could swap the names of the different motives at random, and it would still be the same.

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

7 hours ago, Damien F said:

I absolutely love the Nazi Determination theme in The Airport especially when the snares kick in at 1:37

 

There's definitely something quintessentially Indy about that passage and then it's second rise at around 2:12. It's fascinating to hear because you're listening and there is just something to the music in moments like that where it just feels like it belongs in an Indy film. At the end of the day, I'm not sure what ultimately creates that distinction for Williams that separates that sort of sound from a Star Wars film. One of my concerns honestly was that this was gonna sound more like another Star Wars ST score than Indy 5, but it unmistakably is Williams in Indy mode, and it's so much fun to hear.

Another moment in that track that I can't get enough of is this brief little twinkly strike Williams does here at 3:00. It...
 

Spoiler

almost feels like hearing Williams do his take on Silvestri's Back to the Future "twinkle," which is pretty fitting given what is unfolding during the moment it plays.
 

 

 

[Falstaft 2,132]

1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Did Williams go overboard with FOUR Nazi motifs? Was he specially inspired by them? Does he have Nazi memorabilia stacked up somewhere in his home that we are not aware of? 😀

 

Arguably, DoD features five, if you count the repurposed snatches of ROTLA's "Fist Fight/The Flying Wing" that feature that film's Nazi motif! Heck, even six, if you're convinced (I'm not at all) that TLC's Nazi theme is intentionally alluded to at the end of "Polybius Cipher."

[christian 0]

13 hours ago, Tydirium said:

 

 

03 Germany, 1944

0:05 Nazi Supremacy

0:44 "On the Tank"

1:41 Nazis (ROTLA)

1:54 Raiders A

2:03 Nazis (ROTLA)

2:09 Raiders A

2:19 Nazi Supremacy

2:40 Dial of Destiny

3:13 Raiders A

3:25 Nazi Spirit

4:12 Raiders A

 

 

 

Regarding the analysis of "Germany 1944" (above), what does "ROTLA" stand for? If this is a spoiler, please don't answer. And doesn't minute 2:03 sound like the Death Star motive (1977) regarding harmony or theme?

[thx99 1,740]

4 minutes ago, christian said:

 

Regarding the analysis of "Germany 1944" (above), what does "ROTLA" stand for? If this is a spoiler, please don't answer. And doesn't minute 2:03 sound like the Death Star motive (1977) regarding harmony or theme?

 

ROTLA = Raiders of the Lost Ark

[Tydirium 1,167]

5 minutes ago, christian said:

 

Regarding the analysis of "Germany 1944" (above), what does "ROTLA" stand for? If this is a spoiler, please don't answer. And doesn't minute 2:03 sound like the Death Star motive (1977) regarding harmony or theme?

ROTLA stands for Raiders of the Lost Ark. There is similarity between the Nazi motif from that film and the stormtrooper motif (I think that’s what you’re thinking of; the Death Star has a different motif) from the original Star Wars.

[Damien F 1,742]

I was listening to an interview with Mangold and the interviewer asked if John Williams just repeated "Leia and Han" for Marion's theme. I presume she meant Han Solo and the Princess. Mangold said "Well it is the same guy. Mozart always sounds a little alike. They all come from the same brain, the same pencil, the same piano".

[Chen G. 3,950]

4 minutes ago, Damien F said:

"Well it is the same guy. Mozart always sounds a little alike. They all come from the same brain, the same pencil, the same piano".

 

Some composers do that more than others, but yeah that's a fair statement.

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

Good answer from a director.

[Damien F 1,742]

2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Good answer from a director.

 

Yes, I thought so, especially as it was unlikely to be a question he had to answer before in previous interviews for DOD.

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

1 minute ago, Damien F said:

 

Yes, I thought so, especially as it was unlikely to be a question he had to answer before in previous interviews for DOD.

 

But kind of a weird question, since it concerned old themes. It would have made more sense if the question involved Helena's theme.

[Damien F 1,742]

3 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

But kind of a weird question, since it concerned old themes. It would have made more sense if the question involved Helena's theme.

 

Mangold mentioned the "magnificent score" of the Indy films in general, and then the interviewer mentioned Marion's theme.

[DangerMotif 1,038]

Is there a link to listen to it?

[Damien F 1,742]

6 minutes ago, DangerMotif said:

Is there a link to listen to it?

 

 

The Mangold interview is at 52:49 and they mention the score near the beginning of it.

[Brando 1,864]

4 hours ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

Or at least, that's one way to look at it.

I think I can get behind that. It’ll take a bit to get used to but I think I’ll come around to it.

[Damien F 1,742]

I've been playing the soundtrack continuously since it was released. I really can't get enough of it. The last time I was this enraptured by a new JW score was TFA.

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

4 hours ago, Brando said:

I think I can get behind that. It’ll take a bit to get used to but I think I’ll come around to it.

 

I think there also might be something to the idea of Williams seizing the opportunity to just play the Raiders March in the credits with nothing tied to it. It doesn't lead into anything, it doesn't act as a sandwich to bookend the credits. It just gets to kinda stand on its own, which it never has in quite the way it does here.

[crumbs 14,318]

5 hours ago, Damien F said:

 

 

The Mangold interview is at 52:49 and they mention the score near the beginning of it.

 

Credit to Mangold for answering her questions so thoughtfully because that interviewer didn't engender much respect. It was obvious she was chasing headlines after her question about Williams, and it was great to hear Mangold immediately put her back in her box (even if he was incorrect about that ROTLA/ESB timeline).

 

Absolutely despise this modern trend of "gotcha" journalism. She knew she was going too far with her line of questioning and probably anticipated being shut down by the publicist (and was probably happy about it, because it meant more fuel for her podcast).

[Bellosh 3,419]

Okay here's what I did to make my own 'End Credits'

 

All of New York, 1969 ---> Helena's Theme ---> Raiders March from New York, 1969 ---> coda at the end of Germany 1944

 

couple notes:

 

I wanted a lot of Raiders March in this end credits.  Deal with it.

 

I disregarded Prologue, even if it is in the official end credits, I just deemed Helena's Theme too important to not be in it more.  I'm also not talented enough to find a way to transition from something in Prologue to Helena's Theme (even though her theme is in there in the beginning, but not enough). 

 

also the opening piano part of Helena's theme reminds me of JW starting an end credits list with a piano version, ala E.T.  So it goes well pretending that's where the credits roll.

 

If anyone has any ideas for a complete newbie to Audacity, I'd love to know what would sound good after new york 1969 that's either the dial theme, voller theme or archimedes and then into helena's theme.

 

For now this will do.  I can also remove Helena's theme from track 2.

[King Mark 3,631]

I'll wait for a blu ray rip of the credit, there's going to be more music too

[Bellosh 3,419]

I debated going full on ROTS style end credits and make it long as hell.  But it was getting close to the 20 minute mark.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Love the fleeting use of organ later in the score in Water Ballet and Archimedes Tomb

Very distinct use in JW's filmography besides like E.T

[ocelot 508]

On 28/6/2023 at 12:14 AM, Signals said:

That sound JW uses in action music, is that muted trombone?

He uses every brass, Trumpets, French Horns, Trombones, Bass Trombones and Tuba, muted and unmuted, so it would depend where you are talking about in the score.

[TolkienSS 407]

I listened to all 5 Indy film end credits again, especially the march; does anyone else think the Raiders March in DoD sounds limp and thin compared to the rest? There is something about that snare drum that sounds like someone in a DAW laid a snare drum line over an actual recording.

[Mr. Who 919]

1 hour ago, TolkienSS said:

I listened to all 5 Indy film end credits again, especially the march; does anyone else think the Raiders March in DoD sounds limp and thin compared to the rest? There is something about that snare drum that sounds like someone in a DAW laid a snare drum line over an actual recording.

I felt in the cinema that the temp was slower and that it thus had a slightly heavier feeling than most versions of the theme.

[Vince 34]

41 minutes ago, Mr. Who said:

I felt in the cinema that the temp was slower and that it thus had a slightly heavier feeling than most versions of the theme.

 

Quite right, I remarked on this slower temp in an earlier post and after trying a few times it's growing on me. It's probably Williams' way to address Indy's advanced age but the first time I heard his approach it sounded off to me too. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny soundtrack: All the songs from John Williams’ nostalgia-fuelled adventure

[Damien F 1,742]

14 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny soundtrack: All the songs from John Williams’ nostalgia-fuelled adventure

 

Songs? I didn't realize DOD was a musical.

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

It is, apparently. 

[BB-8 3,481]

Good music for the bad guys.

 

On 02/07/2023 at 5:22 AM, TheUlyssesian said:

Archimedes Theme

 

"I just wanted to write Archy a theme."

[Quppa 117]

https://audioboom.com/posts/8327053-episode-376-james-mangold-on-the-music-of-indiana-jones-the-dial-of-destiny

 

New episode of Soundtracking with Edith Bowman: 'James Mangold On The Music Of Indiana Jones & The Dial Of Destiny'.