Simon Franglen's AVATAR: THE WAY OF WATER (2022)

[publicist 4,643]

The score is nothing. It's just a reworking of a few Horner cues and largely faceless atmospheric/non-descript underscore for the rest. 10 years before i'd have rolled my eyes at another danger motif appearance, the few times it pops up here it sounds like breath of life. Times have changed.

[Mr. Who 924]

4 minutes ago, publicist said:

The score is nothing. It's just a reworking of a few Horner cues and largely faceless atmospheric/non-descript underscore for the rest. 10 years before i'd have rolled my eyes at another danger motif appearance, the few times it pops up here it sounds like breath of life. Times have changed.

Have you seen the movie or are you basing this opinion on a couple of clips from the 3+ hour movie?

[MaxMovieMan 285]

47 minutes ago, publicist said:

The score is nothing. It's just a reworking of a few Horner cues and largely faceless atmospheric/non-descript underscore for the rest. 10 years before i'd have rolled my eyes at another danger motif appearance, the few times it pops up here it sounds like breath of life. Times have changed.

Did you see the movie already?

[Richard Penna 3,737]

As the risk of being the usual apologist for apparently rubbish scores, you need to qualify a comment like that with some context.

[publicist 4,643]

5 hours ago, MaxMovieMan said:

Did you see the movie already?

 

Yes, embargoed of course. And eat my tongue, it gets to a rousing finish, meaning it's exactly the kind of empty spectacle you'd expect, but damn it if Cameron still doesn't deliver the goods in the end. Relatively speaking.

[Thor 7,582]

My comment about the score from the other thread. As others, embargoed until tomorrow to say anything substantial about the film itself.

 

The best parts are those that have Horner's DNA in them, whether it concerns themes or orchestration. The rest -- and especially the action/suspense music -- is completely generic. In one ear, out the other. Indistinguishable from the dominant Hollywood action blockbuster sound (trite, synthetic ostinati, a wall of sound, chords without a core etc.). Just because Franglen was Horner's assistant/programmer/coffeemaker doesn't mean he automatically inherited his talent. The underwater music screamed for James Newton Howard in "Swimming" mode. But I'll give the soundtrack a go just to hear it on its own and see if it's possible to make a decent playlist out of the no doubt excessive presentation.

[leeallen01 2,137]

JNH was meant to score this film. I understand the loyalty and sentimental choice of Cameron. That was a good idea. But if the score is disappointing like it sounds from a few opinions, Cameron should have recognised during production that he wasn't cut out for it, and the logical replacement would be JNH. 

 

Such a shame. 

[Mr. Who 924]

I have faith in Franglen at this point. I am happy that the theme and sound of Horner's masterpiece were kept in this one and based on interviews with Franglen he sounds very passionate about the score and seems to have put a lot of thought into it. I hope that he delivers but will stay away from any reviews and opinions of the movie and the score from this point until I see the movie later this week. I cannot wait to see it!

[publicist 4,643]

1 hour ago, Mr. Who said:

I have faith in Franglen at this point. I am happy that the theme and sound of Horner's masterpiece were kept in this one and based on interviews with Franglen he sounds very passionate about the score and seems to have put a lot of thought into it. 

 

That's the problem, good intentions do not do not replace talent. He doesn't deliver, probably also was not actively asked to (remember, the Horner score was generic, too, just with enough of his fingerprints to make it stand out).

[TolkienSS 409]

6 hours ago, publicist said:

The score is nothing. It's just a reworking of a few Horner cues and largely faceless atmospheric/non-descript underscore for the rest. 10 years before i'd have rolled my eyes at another danger motif appearance, the few times it pops up here it sounds like breath of life. Times have changed.

 

Shit that sounds awful.

[Jean-Baptiste Martin 255]

I don't know if the information has already been shared here: The movie is 192 minutes long and there are 186 minutes of music.

[mstrox 6,659]

Can’t wait for the 38-minute album!

[Richard Penna 3,737]

On hearing the news that The Weeknd has done the totally unneeded end credits song, it's my turn for some predetermined and un-called for negativity.

 

This Friday we get both this album and the last DW specials album - a good day.

[TolkienSS 409]

18 minutes ago, Jean-Baptiste Martin said:

I don't know if the information has already been shared here: The movie is 192 minutes long 

 

😂 Including drive to the theatre, drive back, and commercials, you have to take a day off to watch thing thing.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

3 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

JNH was meant to score this film. I understand the loyalty and sentimental choice of Cameron. That was a good idea. But if the score is disappointing like it sounds from a few opinions, Cameron should have recognised during production that he wasn't cut out for it, and the logical replacement would be JNH. 

 

Such a shame. 

 

I think there was an expectation that the composer would largely re-use Horner's material. I think JNH might not accept the project under such conditions. 

[MedigoScan 325]

Cameron chopping up a score made for his movie?

He would never!

 

[Thor 7,582]

1 hour ago, mstrox said:

Can’t wait for the 38-minute album!

 

If only.

 

58 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

I think there was an expectation that the composer would largely re-use Horner's material. I think JNH might not accept the project under such conditions. 

 

Well, he did WILLOW. Either way, it's a moot point. We have what we have.

[Richard Penna 3,737]

2 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

If only.

 

Oh, 38 minutes is totally representative of an over 3 hour score 

[Jurassic Shark 12,166]

No, it picks the best parts of the score.

[Thor 7,582]

10 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Oh, 38 minutes is totally representative of an over 3 hour score 

 

From what I heard in the film, it might very well.

[Jaaaackified 85]

11 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Oh, 38 minutes is totally representative of an over 3 hour score 

Simon Franglen 在 Twitter: "@mjpwriter @sIeepinsIime We are releasing an extended score only version" / Twitter

[Edmilson 7,527]

Just do like Junkie XL's Justice League and release the whole 3 hours of material anyway. 

[Mr. Who 924]

5 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Just do like Junkie XL's Justice League and release the whole 3 hours of material anyway. 

Definitively, this should become standard. They can release a regular short OST and a complete release. That way everybody is happy.

[Jurassic Shark 12,166]

5 hours ago, Thor said:

Just because Franglen was Horner's assistant/programmer/coffeemaker doesn't mean he automatically inherited his talent. 

 

I reckon he was better at making coffee than Horner.

[MedigoScan 325]

27 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Just do like Junkie XL's Justice League and release the whole 3 hours of material anyway. 

Ironically the score of that movie was altered/patched ala James Camerons movies as well. The most ridiculous case of that being them inserting the wailing woman motif for every single wonderwoman moment.

 

(and the released score was filled with microedits to make people like me froth with irrational frustration)

[HunterTech 994]

Somehow it hasn't occurred to most here that Cameron almost most certainly tampered with whatever Franglen likely originally composed for the film. And yet because this is the first time in a long while that someone lesser known has to work with the man, I do wonder if the album we're gonna get has to adhere more to what's in the film than whatever ideas Simon had earlier on (though it’s also possible he's playing the long game if apparently TWoW sets up themes for the next movie).

[Damien F 1,742]

I remember clearly that after the initial shock of Horner's death, my first thought about the impact of his death on the industry was the disappointment that Avatar 2 would no longer have a Horner score. The description of the action music from the posters above is a shame especially considering how incredible Horner's action writing was for the first movie (both the tracks on the OST and the unreleased cues from the sessions). 

[MaxMovieMan 285]

6 minutes ago, Damien F said:

I remember clearly that after the initial shock of Horner's death, my first thought about the impact of his death on the industry was the disappointment that Avatar 2 would no longer have a Horner score. The description of the action music from the posters above is a shame especially considering how incredible Horner's action writing was for the first movie (both the tracks on the OST and the unreleased cues from the sessions). 

The people who’ve complained so far didn’t seem to like the score for the first one either so maybe this score sounds more similar to Horner than we think. I loved the sound Horner created for the first one and his action cues are among the most badass I’ve heard.

 

I’m an optimist so this may be wishful thinking but I really don’t think Franglen wrote a POS score. I have more faith than that hopefully I’m not wrong.

[Damien F 1,742]

8 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

JNH was meant to score this film. I understand the loyalty and sentimental choice of Cameron. That was a good idea. But if the score is disappointing like it sounds from a few opinions, Cameron should have recognised during production that he wasn't cut out for it, and the logical replacement would be JNH. 

 

Such a shame. 

 

Do we know how close JNH came to scoring Avatar 2? Was his association just internet rumours or did he actually meet with Cameron. For my money, Maleficent is a perfect example of the type of score JNH could have written for Avatar 2. It's a shame he never got the opportunity. 

[mstrox 6,659]

20 minutes ago, MaxMovieMan said:

The people who’ve complained so far didn’t seem to like the score for the first one either so maybe this score sounds more similar to Horner than we think.

@Thorloves the first Avatar score, if I recall correctly.

[Richard Penna 3,737]

8 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

JNH was meant to score this film. I understand the loyalty and sentimental choice of Cameron. That was a good idea. But if the score is disappointing like it sounds from a few opinions, Cameron should have recognised during production that he wasn't cut out for it, and the logical replacement would be JNH. 

 

Such a shame. 

 

I agree he'd be a good fit, but like with the whole Shore/RoP debate/mudsling, it's one thing a director asking a composer, but quite another for the composer to want to do it. JNH has said a lot in interviews lately that he's getting older and relying a lot more on his assistant composers. Do you think he'd want to go through the inevitable chaos of working with Cameron?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Avatar is a 5 star score.

[Thor 7,582]

39 minutes ago, mstrox said:

@Thorloves the first Avatar score, if I recall correctly.

 

Yes. Top 3 Horner, for sure.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

I loved the first score and strongly disliked what was in the 5 min clip showed after the rerelease of the first. Ambient nothingness with none of the detail that made Horner’s entry great. I am inclined to believe those who’ve seen the film are on the money. 

[MaxMovieMan 285]

3 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Yes. Top 3 Horner, for sure.

Why was the score for the sequel so much worse?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

1 hour ago, MaxMovieMan said:

Why was the score for the sequel so much worse?

Because Horner died. 

 

In the latter decades of the 20th century in the first decade of the 21st century there were three great composers unapproached by anyone else. John Williams Jerry Goldsmith and James Horner. There are other competent sometimes great composers but no one ever stays at the level that those three reached over and over. The 2020s has perhaps the least capable film composers in film history.

[Thor 7,582]

6 hours ago, MaxMovieMan said:

Why was the score for the sequel so much worse?

 

Because it lacked any of Horner's sophistication and "overtness" in themes and orchestration. See my comment earlier; I'm talking about the new Franglen material now, basically for the military/action scenes, that was interchangeable with any anonymous action music these days. Whatever was left of Horner in the film -- theme variations, danger motif, ethnic synths etc. -- was nice and even goosebump-inducing at times.

[publicist 4,643]

10 hours ago, JoeinAR said:

The 2020s has perhaps the least capable film composers in film history.

 

You got it wrong: the 2010s and 2020s film and tv industry just has the least interest in music as an artform compared with the decades before. So the best you can hope for now is a smart director who values music, and in the mainstream field unfortunately they all fell under the Zimmer spell (Nolan, Villeneuve).

[Jurassic Shark 12,166]

Given the number of years Cameron got for this project, I'm surprised he didn't learn composing and write the score himself. 

[NL197 368]

He goes on to say an extended score only album might happen. 

[GerateWohl 4,430]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Given the number of years Cameron got for this project, I'm surprised he didn't learn composing and write the score himself. 

Yes. That also would have explained, why he obviously didn't have more time than a day for writing the script.

[Richard Penna 3,737]

The script and characters were never the reason to see an Avatar movie.

[Bespin 8,499]

First, to love Avatar, you need to love the blue color.

[Romão 2,274]

But would a better script and characters detract from the visual experience? Why not aim higher?

[Richard Penna 3,737]

You could say that about any popcorn film. There has to be room for cinema you just watch for visual and aural enjoyment.

[Jurassic Shark 12,166]

There has to be room for cinema that's optimised with respect to profit. 

[DangerMotif 1,038]

13 hours ago, JoeinAR said:

Because Horner died. 

 

In the latter decades of the 20th century in the first decade of the 21st century there were three great composers unapproached by anyone else. John Williams Jerry Goldsmith and James Horner. There are other competent sometimes great composers but no one ever stays at the level that those three reached over and over. The 2020s has perhaps the least capable film composers in film history.

John Barry also

[Yavar Moradi 2,623]

Elmer Bernstein also

[1977 1,743]

Basil P as well

[Thor 7,582]

Let's not forget Hildegard von Bingen.