What's a score you wished John Williams did?

[Thor 7,520]

1 hour ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

JW can't do "dark and disturbing"?

IMAGES,

DRACULA,

THE FURY, 

The Abduction Of Barry,

all say he can.

Or the offscreen molestation scene in Sleepers, probably the darkest scene JW has ever scored, topically.

[Bellosh 3,419]

5 hours ago, Loert said:

LOTR, but using the themes written by Shore.

 

In all honesty, do you just mean that Shore didn't use the themes as well as he could have or that the underscore just wasn't good?

 

Don't let my shitty gif ruin this. I genuinely wanna know.

[Faleel 5,359]

30 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

 

In all honesty, do you just mean that Shore didn't use the themes as well as he could have or that the underscore just wasn't good?

 

Don't let my shitty gif ruin this. I genuinely wanna know.

Or maybe he was just curious how it would sound.

[Bellosh 3,419]

well duh?

[Marian Schedenig 8,210]

3 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

JW can't do "dark and disturbing"?

IMAGES,

DRACULA,

THE FURY, 

The Abduction Of Barry,

all say he can.

 

Why not simply say Goblet of Fire? Ligeti clusters for a kids movie should be enough to settle this.

[Loert 2,515]

1 hour ago, Bellosh said:

 

In all honesty, do you just mean that Shore didn't use the themes as well as he could have or that the underscore just wasn't good?

 

Don't let my shitty gif ruin this. I genuinely wanna know.

 

Both, sort of! I have to be careful with how I word this...

 

My personal opinion is that, whilst Shore wrote some good themes and crafted a rich tapestry of leitmotifs, and had a great sense of what music the film needed at a specific point (and what Middle-earth needed overall), the actual note-by-note, measure-by-measure writing of the score, in terms of stuff like orchestration, choices of instrumentation, counterpoint etc. is rather weak. And for that reason I have real trouble listening to the score on its own.

 

So I would be really curious to hear what the score would've sounded like had it been written by someone with more knowledge and experience with the orchestra, which JW undoubtedly has.

 

At the same time, I realise that the "heaviness" of Shore's score gives the films a certain quality which JW probably wouldn't have been able to provide in the same way. A "whimsy" LOTR score would certainly be worse than what we have already.

[Bellosh 3,419]

6 minutes ago, Loert said:

 

Both, sort of! I have to be careful with how I word this...

 

My personal opinion is that, whilst Shore wrote some good themes and crafted a rich tapestry of leitmotifs, and had a great sense of what music the film needed a specific point, the actual note-by-note, measure-by-measure writing of the score, in terms of stuff like orchestration, choices of instrumentation, counterpoint etc. is rather weak. And for that reason I have real trouble listening to the score on its own.

 

So I would be really curious to hear what the score would sound like had it been written by someone with more knowledge and experience with the orchestra, which JW undoubtedly has.

 

At the same time, I realise that the "heaviness" of Shore's score gives the films a certain quality which JW probably wouldn't have been able to provide in the same way. A "whimsy" LOTR would certainly be worse than what we have already.

 

Well that's why I wondered, because if JW used the same themes and wove them in differently, does the type of theme or theme itself dictate how you can do that?  Like would those scores inherently not sound like John Williams if we knew he was using Shores themes.  I have no knowledge of music outside of liking it lol.   So that might be a dumb question.  Obviously different if the film has only 1 major theme or something.  But LOTR has so many.

 

But yeah Shore's themes Williams-ified would be cool.

[Bespin 8,484]

Someone said: Chamber of Secrets.

 

THAT IS NOT FUNNY!!!

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Zombie Ass: Toilet of the Dead 

[Tom 4,672]

October Sky. 

Galaxy Quest. 

 

And for a childhood memory movie: The Quest/Frog Dreaming.  

 

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

‘F.A.R.T: The Movie’ (1991)

 

‘Operation Dumbo Drop’ (1995)

 

‘Freddy Got Fingered’ (2001)

 

‘Gigli’ (2003)

 

[Courtney Sees Ghosts 269]

10 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

Danny Elfman's a pretty neurotic guy, he probably thinks they have that list on every movie he's done 

This is much is true. Especially in the early days of his career cause he (by his own admission) had no idea what he was doing. Bro is always worried even now that he'll be kicked off a project, which I think has only ever happened twice and he came back for one of them.

[King Mark 3,631]

I wish he did Ready Player One

[HunterTech 994]

This is such a difficult question for me to answer, given there's very little I would change about a lot of the films mentioned that have the final scores they do. Sure, a full HP set would've been nice, but Doyle's GoF is too good to want to part with. Elfman's M:I I also really fancy a great amount. That, and I am surprised by the amount of LotR mentions, given the hell some have caused here in their worship of Shore's work.

 

I guess I'll have to go with Superman II as well, since I just want to know what he'd have done with Zod and his cronies. Since he's dabbled in so many other corners multiple times, I'll also go with Iron Man, since it'd be neat to have a second hero attached to him (plus Debney's IM2 and Tyler's IM3 definitely prove a more traditional sound can work with the character).

 

12 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I think X-Men is beneath Williams to be honest. He shouldn't be scoring a run of the mill trash superhero blockbuster. 

 

X-Men is not terrible but come on, it did not need a Williams score. 

 

The movie that starts with a Holocaust flashback that no modern superhero movie would ever want to touch (or at least would fumble more blatantly)?

 

I'm being facetious of course, yet I would've been curious to see what that production would've brought out of him, given the supposed hell Michael Kamen endured with Dick Donner's wife that caused him to pivot away from his original plan to just go full on classic superhero with the sound. Especially when it sounds like the film didn't know what it wanted achieve for a while, given the various remnants of earlier drafts in areas.

 

In any case, I'm only glad it didn't happen because then JW avoided working with such a deeply unpleasant man like Singer.

 

7 hours ago, crocodile said:

Co-composed by Klaus Badelt.

 

Karol

 

I've tried looking into this, and quite frankly I really think the "electronic percussion" credit actually seems very apt. So much of the stuff in his promos are just the more obtrusive overlays that likely were just tacked on in post, given much of the writing and even some of the electronics definitely have Kamen's touch to them.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

"Paul" with Simon Pegg and Nick Frost could have been interesting. I know they really wanted Johnny for the gig, but ended up being too expensive.

 

I don't know if he would have done it, though. But a sort of Close Encounters self-parody sounds like it could have been a lot of fun.

[Tallguy 3,401]

On 23/06/2023 at 4:05 AM, Naïve Old Fart said:

Conversely, he nearly didn't score CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND. Can you imagine that?! 

 

That would be the worst timeline.

 

On 23/06/2023 at 4:10 AM, Signals said:

Superman II.

 

That's what I came here for. Of course, not at the expense of The Empire Strikes Back.

 

Empire expanded Williams' vocabulary for Star Wars in a way that Superman never got. Even Indiana Jones never felt like such a leap forward. Return of the Jedi is disappointing only in as much as it's not such a leap as Empire was. (Of course neither was the film itself.)

 

OTOH, what more could Williams have done with Superman? Expanded on the Personal Theme? I suppose he would have written a theme for the Three Villains.

[Faleel 5,359]

The Villains, the love theme, Powerless Superman

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

2 hours ago, Muad'Dib said:

"Paul" with Simon Pegg and Nick Frost could have been interesting. I know they really wanted Johnny for the gig, but ended up being too expensive.

 

I don't know if he would have done it, though. But a sort of Close Encounters self-parody sounds like it could have been a lot of fun.

He probably intentionally hiked up his rate so he wouldn't have to score it.  "Yeah, that'll be a billion dollars"

[Naïve Old Fart 9,553]

2 hours ago, Tallguy said:

That's what I came here for. Of course, not at the expense of The Empire Strikes Back.

 

It wouldn't have been.

There was a full six months in-between the release of the films. If Donner had directed II, we would have had the greatest superhero film score.

 

 

Ok..the second greatest 

[1977 1,743]

The Artist could have been interesting.

 

3 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

He probably intentionally hiked up his rate so he wouldn't have to score it.

 

Mercifully so.

[Tallguy 3,401]

4 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

It wouldn't have been.

There was a full six months in-between the release of the films. If Donner had directed II, we would have had the greatest superhero film score.

 

 

Ok..the second greatest 

 

Ah. OK, not Empire. Raiders! Yikes! (Weird that I remember Supes II and Empire on the same morning programs. But I'm off by a year.

 

Raiders, Dragonslayer, Superman II, For Your Eyes Only, and The Great Muppet Caper!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,553]

The release of SUPERMAN II, is an odd one.

It was released in Australia, in December, 1980, Europe, in April, 1981, then, finally, the USA, in July, 1981.

Why it got a) released in Australia first, and b) why it got released in Australia a full seven months before the USA, is a complete mystery. Normally, it's the other way around.

[Darth Mulder 154]

Epic movie like Rózsa. It's surprising that someone didn't want Williams to compose music for an epic film. After the success of Gladiator, there was a momentary trend to make such films. Just imagine it three hours long Flag Parade style music. 

[Bespin 8,484]

Just now, Darth Mulder said:

Epic movie like Rózsa. It's surprising that someone didn't want Williams to compose music for an epic film. After the success of Gladiator, there was a momentary trend to make such films. Just imagine it two hours long Flag Parade style music. 

 

Well, we got "John Goldfarb, Please Come Home"!

[Edmilson 7,473]

5 minutes ago, Darth Mulder said:

Epic movie like Rózsa. It's surprising that someone didn't want Williams to compose music for an epic film. After the success of Gladiator, there was a momentary trend to make such films. Just imagine it three hours long Flag Parade style music. 

I guess The Patriot is the closest we'll ever get to a John Williams score for a historical epic. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,553]

On 23/06/2023 at 11:33 AM, filmmusic said:

2) a biblical film

 

The closest we get to that, I guess, is ROSEWOOD.

 

 

On 23/06/2023 at 11:33 AM, filmmusic said:

1) a period romantic drama (I know he has written Jane Eyre, but that is a TV movie and doesn't count! )

 

JANE EYRE got a cinema release, in the UK, so...it does  

[Corellian2019 386]

Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. Some people imagine a Bond film scored by JW, but I'm more interested in what his approach would have sounded like for a low-key spy film that focused more on espionage. Probably something in the vein of Presumed Innocent (the main theme of which, in terms of emotion, fits perfectly!)

[Naïve Old Fart 9,553]

 

TTSS would be a good choice, but the score that we got is fanfreakintastic.

[filmmusic 1,842]

2 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

The closest we get to that, I guess, is ROSEWOOD.

 Because of the songs you mean?

[Naïve Old Fart 9,553]

Exactly.

It's the closest we get, to Biblical themes.

The only other"religious" film that he's done is - correct me, if I'm wrong - SEVEN YEARS IN TIBET, although there are Roman Catholic overtones, in SLEEPERS.

[GerateWohl 4,373]

The closest Williams ever got to Rózsa in biblical mode is probably really The Flag Parade. And the closest He got to Rózsa in film noir mode might be Helena's Theme.

[filmmusic 1,842]

1 hour ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Exactly.

It's the closest we get, to Biblical themes.

The only other"religious" film that he's done is - correct me, if I'm wrong - SEVEN YEARS IN TIBET, although there are Roman Catholic overtones, in SLEEPERS.

I would argue the closest to biblical themes, is the grail and Knight's theme from Last Crusade.

 

Seven years in tibet? religious?? Maybe, but it's eastern religious.

[karelm 2,915]

I would be very curious to have heard him do a historical epic like Gladiator.  Also Alien since there was a time it seemed he might do that.  Would have been interesting to hear how he would have approached that.  Probably like the first half of CEOTTK.  Dark psychological would have been very interesting too.  Something like Apocalypse Now descent in to madness.

[Brónach 1,302]

On 23/06/2023 at 3:42 PM, Courtney said:

 I truly cannot picture Pirates' musical identity being done by anyone else besides Hans Zimmer.

 

I can, as it currently stands!

[GerateWohl 4,373]

1 hour ago, karelm said:

I would be very curious to have heard him do a historical epic like Gladiator.  Also Alien since there was a time it seemed he might do that.  Would have been interesting to hear how he would have approached that.  Probably like the first half of CEOTTK.  Dark psychological would have been very interesting too.  Something like Apocalypse Now descent in to madness.

Williams never worked with this kind of echo effects like Goldsmith did in Alien and Planet of the Apes. And these are really quite characteristic for these scores. Would be interesting If Williams would have gone into a similar direction. Probably not. And for the Alien main title we might have missed that creepy moving of the bows on the strings which I absolutely love. 

So, it might be interesting, if a rejected Williams score for Alien existed. But I wouldn't want to miss Goldsmith's  work for it.

[Damien F 1,742]

I love Goldsmith's score for Air Force One but it would have presented JW with a great opportunity for heroic Americana and plenty of 90s era JW action music.

[Faleel 5,359]

8 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Williams never worked with this kind of echo effects like Goldsmith did in Alien and Planet of the Apes.

Soundings.

[WilliamsStarShip2282 308]

On 23/06/2023 at 5:30 PM, GerateWohl said:

One film, of which I really wished John Williams had scored it is Ridley Scott's Gladiator.

First, I didn't like Zimmer's score (apart from the song). And secondly, this is a great film in a genre, that has never been touched by Williams and where I am sure, he would have been great. Williams in Rózsa mode. A hybrid of my two favourite composers. Would have been a dream come true.

 

 

Had a think about this, absolutely agree. I think Han's score sucked quite honestly, and pretty much also of it was recycled for the first Pirates movie. I think John could have done something really great with that movie. But always impossible to say with what ifs, especially since not all of his scores turned out well. Stanley and Iris is one which I think is just not interesting at all.

Interesting that Alien was mentioned, since the featurette for that movie is basically the producer and Goldsmith going back and forth saying the music decided on didn't fit, with the producer side saying too lush and tonal, however JW did an amazing job with War of the Worlds, so perhaps he would have in reality been a better fit.

 

Ironically, a lot of people put Pirates on the list of things, but its the only score by Hans that I actually like (that and Hannibal, and driving Ms. Daisy was kind of nice too). Similarly, I think Howard Shore's score for LOTR was what was perfectly needed, it didn't look like a standard hollywood movie, and the music shouldn't sound like one either (meaning that John basically created the modern hollywood score that everyone copied).

Bridge of Spies was a pity though, the replacement score sounded really dumb and ill fitting if im being blatant. And in the same vein, even though there was a couple of nice musical bits to come out of it, I think the new Star Wars trilogy was a complete waste of his time. Although he seems to have enjoyed it so...

 

[pete 907]

2 hours ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

Stanley and Iris is one which I think is just not interesting at all.

 

 

Ha, that's a personal favorite of mine. i just love the smaller scale ensemble and the melodies. Love the pairing of piano and flute. 

[Richard Penna 3,695]

19 hours ago, karelm said:

I would be very curious to have heard him do a historical epic like Gladiator.

 

I love Zimmer's score but hearing what Williams would do in terms of more developed, long-lined themes, would be great.

 

Probaby the closest we were ever going to get to that Moses epic that SS was cooking for a while, which got everyone excited.

[GerateWohl 4,373]

6 hours ago, Signals said:

Soundings.

Know it exists, but never listened to it. But thank you for the hint.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

7 hours ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

Bridge of Spies was a pity though, the replacement score sounded really dumb and ill fitting if im being blatant.

 

Replacement score? 

 

14 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Know it exists, but never listened to it. But thank you for the hint.

 

Well, it's just a collection of sounds.

[Chen G. 3,950]

On 24/06/2023 at 2:32 AM, Loert said:

At the same time, I realise that the "heaviness" of Shore's score gives the films a certain quality which JW probably wouldn't have been able to provide in the same way.

 

This. Its not as pretty or as tuneful a sound as Williams', and that's exactly why it succeeds: too pretty a sound, orchestration-wise, coupled with those very fanciful visuals could get pretty saccharine pretty fast: its putting a hat on a hat, as it were. Shore's score helps instill a gloomy, pathos-laden mood from the outset, and maintain it and that's absolutely essential to the success of those films.

[GerateWohl 4,373]

28 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

This. Its not as pretty or as tuneful a sound as Williams', and that's exactly why it succeeds: too pretty a sound, orchestration-wise, coupled with those very fanciful visuals could get pretty saccharine pretty fast. Shore's score helps instill a gloomy, pathos-laden mood from the outset, and maintain it and that's absolutely essential to the success of those films.

But especially the music for the Orks and other villains misses some rhythmical sophistication, that Williams is able to provide instantly.

[Holko 9,531]

Why do orcs need sophistocation? They're orcs. Primal ugly violent weird rhythms are perfect.

[Faleel 5,359]

Yeah, They're basically riffraff.

[Chen G. 3,950]

5 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

But especially the music for the Orks and other villains misses some rhythmical sophistication

 

I disagree. Williams' villain music - stuff like the Imperial March or even Duel of the Fates - is too rhythmically propulsive. It makes it feel groovy. I remember back in 1980 Williams said he wrote a new theme for Vader and the Empire that's "evil but fun."

 

That kind of treatment of evil - "evil but fun" - would not work for The Lord of the Rings.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

On 24/06/2023 at 1:34 PM, Muad'Dib said:

"Paul" with Simon Pegg and Nick Frost could have been interesting. I know they really wanted Johnny for the gig, but ended up being too expensive.

 

I don't know if he would have done it, though. But a sort of Close Encounters self-parody sounds like it could have been a lot of fun.

 

Arnold did the ideal job on that score, and having seen the film a few times I would suggest strongly that a CE3K type score would have been wrong for it.

 

Why the notion (not just from you) of JW being 'saved' from having to do it? It's a fun movie. If JW can score the SW prequels, he can do this.

[Faleel 5,359]

Just now, Chen G. said:

 

 

 

That kind of treatment of evil - "evil but fun" - would not work for The Lord of the Rings.

Depends on your definition of fun.

 

Shore's Orc music is definitely fun for me, especially in AUJ with the aleatorism dialed up to 11.

[Chen G. 3,950]

6 minutes ago, Signals said:

especially in AUJ with the aleatorism dialed up to 11.

 

Well, that one - film and score - is a bit of an outlier. Its very much the satyr-play of the cycle (an inspired choice, I think). Easily the most whimsical turn from Shore for this series, and the one place where the style of a John Williams (or a Bear McCreary, for that matter) could have worked for it all.

 

Its partially why Plan 9's praghiera works so well as a main, swashbuckling tune.