HOOK Ultimate Edition - MUSIC Discussion

[The Lost Folio 183]

I am really impressed by the quality of this release! There are so many tracks I had no idea even existed! I am looking forward to the podcast. For now, though:

 

Do we know the reason why the extended Prologue was composed? Is it an unused revision or a discarded original version? (Not clear in the booklet notes.)

 

I understand from the booklet notes that the instrumental version of the Pirate Sequence was used as backing track for rehearsals. Is it the same case for the instrumental version of When You're Alone or was there another intent?

[Dirk 0]

18 hours ago, Jay said:

 

On the album you're hearing what John Williams wrote and recorded for the scene.

 

For the final film, Spielberg decided to drop some of the music in the dubbing stage.

 

There are many other spots throughout the whole movie where Spielberg dropped music that Williams recorded.  I think they are all mentioned in the liner notes.

Thanks, for some reason I really wanted the ultimate war to be without edits between the three tracks, just one seventeen minute ride ending with the four bursts. 

[Jay 37,369]

I think that, the more you listen to the full cue as Williams intended it to be heard, the more you will appreciate the inclusion of the short passage that Spielberg didn't use.  It's how you get from the end of the action, to Peter seeing that his kids just want to go home, and he has to immediately leave everyone in Neverland behind.

[Holko 9,529]

So, first listen, main program only, no liner notes read.

 

 

's alright.

[mstrox 6,651]

Matt

[Faleel 5,355]

[Holko 9,529]

34 minutes ago, mstrox said:

Matt

What

[mstrox 6,651]

I have it on good authority that you think it’s amazing

[Holko 9,529]

7 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I have it on good authority that you think it’s amazing

You RAT

[Edmilson 7,466]

1 hour ago, mstrox said:

Matt

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

Finally got it. I went through the first two CD and it's so great to finally hear it properly. The sound is absolutely perfect, MM really did a terrific job on it. Looking forward to hear the third CD I'm so curious about it.

[Bespin 8,483]

I apologize for asking this question, but I truly value having a 'short-program' option, especially when an Expanded release is out and the OST is not reproduced in its entirety...

 

Therefore, I'd like to inquire directly to @Jay: How can I replicate something closest to the OST (but chronological of course) with this new expansion? I presume you've already been working on that!

[Bespin 8,483]

And so I wait.

[Jay 37,369]

On 16/12/2023 at 7:49 AM, Bespin said:

I apologize for asking this question, but I truly value having a 'short-program' option, especially when an Expanded release is out and the OST is not reproduced in its entirety...

 

Well that's what Disc 3 is.  You can listen to that (specifically tracks 1-21; the last 3 tracks are bonus tracks) as your short program.

 

 

On 16/12/2023 at 7:49 AM, Bespin said:

How can I replicate something closest to the OST (but chronological of course) with this new expansion?

 

11 of the OST album's 17 tracks are here exactly, and the other 6 can be easily approximated, yes. 

 

(Really, if a modern rebuild of the OST album from 1st generation elements if what you're after, that was released by Mondo in 2021 on vinyl.  Hopefully Sony Music replaces the old master with this rebuild on digital platforms at some point)

 

But, to use this set to approximate the OST album, it's easy:

 

OST	LLL
1 Prologue 1:31	2-11 Hook Prologue 1:25
2 We Don't Wanna Grow Up 1:50	3-01 We Don't Wanna Grow Up 1:52
3 Banning Back Home 2:22	2-12 Banning Back Home (Extended Version) 4:24
4 Granny Wendy 2:57	1-10 Forgotten How To Fly 0:56 and 1-04 Wendy's Entrance 2:12
5 Hook-Napped 3:56	1-09 Hook Is Back 2:09 and 1-08 Hook Returns To Kensington 2:00
6 The Arrival Of Tink And The Flight To Neverland 5:56	1-12 Arrival Of Tink 3:33 and 3-08 The Flight to Neverland (Alternate) 2:33
7 Presenting The Hook 2:58	1-14 Pirate Town And Presenting The Hook 5:09
8 From Mermaids To Lost Boys 4:24	2-13 From Mermaids To Lost Boys 4:26
9 The Lost Boy Chase 3:32	1-20 The Lost Boy Chase 3:35
10 Smee's Plan 1:45	1-23 Smee's Plan 1:46
11 The Banquet 3:08	1-26 The Banquet 3:14
12 The Never-Feast 4:39	3-14 The Never-Feast 4:42
13 Remembering Childhood 11:02	3-18 Remembering Childhood 11:06
14 You Are The Pan 4:00	2-04 You Are The Pan (Film Version) 1:26 and 1-21 The Face Of Pan 2:42
15 When You Are Alone 3:14	1-28 When You're Alone 3:17
16 The Ultimate War 7:53	2-15 The Ultimate War 7:54
17 Farewell Neverland 10:17	2-09 Farewell Neverland 10:18

 

This is all mentioned in the liner notes, of course.

 

Alternatively, you can spruce things up by using alternates/film versions instead

 

OST	LLL
1 Prologue 1:31	1-01 Hook Prologue (Extended Version) 1:33
2 We Don't Wanna Grow Up 1:50	1-02 We Don’t Wanna Grow Up (Extended Version) 2:57
3 Banning Back Home 2:22	1-03 Banning Back Home (Film Version) 3:21
4 Granny Wendy 2:57	1-10 Forgotten How To Fly 0:56 and 1-04 Wendy's Entrance 2:12
5 Hook-Napped 3:56	1-09 Hook Is Back 2:09 and 1-08 Hook Returns To Kensington 2:00
6 The Arrival Of Tink And The Flight To Neverland 5:56	3-06 The Arrival Of Tink (Alternate) 3:35 and 1-13 The Flight To Neverland 2:40
7 Presenting The Hook 2:58	3-24 Presenting The Hook (Vocal Version Segment) 1:38
8 From Mermaids To Lost Boys 4:24	1-18 From Mermaids To Lost Boys (Film Version) 4:26
9 The Lost Boy Chase 3:32	3-10 The Lost Boy Chase (Alternate) 3:34
10 Smee's Plan 1:45	1-23 Smee's Plan 1:46
11 The Banquet 3:08	1-26 The Banquet 3:14
12 The Never-Feast 4:39	1-27 The Never-Feast (Film Version) 4:41
13 Remembering Childhood 11:02	2-02 Home Run And Follow That Shadow 5:24 and 2-03 Peter Remembers (The Flying Sequence) 8:23
14 You Are The Pan 4:00	2-04 You Are The Pan (Film Version) 1:26 and 2-14 The Face Of Pan (Choral Version) 2:43
15 When You Are Alone 3:14	3-14 When You’re Alone (Instrumental) 3:19
16 The Ultimate War 7:53	2-06 The Ultimate War (Film Version) 8:02
17 Farewell Neverland 10:17	3-20 Farewell Neverland (Short Version / Alternate) 6:54

 

Or mix and match between the two

[Bespin 8,483]

And for an ever shorter experience, I came across a South Korean LP of Hook that omitted two tracks to accommodate the OST on a single LP: 'Remembering Childhood' and 'The Ultimate War.'

 

Sometimes, you only have time for a quickie!

[Jay 37,369]

I have that LP, it's what I had John Williams sign when I met him

 

 

[Bespin 8,483]

This 1 h 25 playlist, made with the tracks LLL (or Jay?) selected as 'excerpts' on their website, is quite good as well!

 

(I hope I've inserted the alt and bonuses at the right places...)

[Jay 37,369]

54 minutes ago, Bespin said:

the tracks LLL selected as 'excerpts' on their website

 

Are you taking about the samples? I chose those, with input and final approval from Mike. Neil cut them.

 

The intents were to showcase that we had everything that was missing before, not give away all the surprises, and make sure all twelve of the major themes were covered.

 

It was not an intent to pick tracks that would make for a good mini album or anything like that. In fact, I've mentioned already that it's our strong preference that everyone listens to the new album as we've constructed it as their first listen, and only do custom playlists after you've heard it our way once.

[Bespin 8,483]

Congrats again @Jay.

 

Do you remember that some years ago, after joining the forum, I asked in a thread if someone on that forum was participating as a consultant or collaborator in the current expansions. You told me 'No' at that moment.

 

A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then, and I'm happy for you that this passion you have for John Williams (even if it doesn't make you rich) can at least allow you to share your passion with the rest of us.

 

Glory and fortune, Mr. LeBlanc, glory and fortune!

 

[Jay 37,369]

Thank you Bespin. I do vaguely remember that, I wonder how long ago that was?

 

I started helping Mike with these releases over 7 1/2 years ago, and Hook is the 25th release I've been a part of. And it was the first one I started on!

[Bespin 8,483]

I joined the forum in october 2013.

 

OMG that's my 10th anniversary! 

 

[Holko 9,529]

On 15/12/2023 at 6:16 PM, Holko said:

So, first listen, main program only, no liner notes read.

And then I listened to all the rest, then next day to a combined chrono bonus track program (with the disc 2 ones put in), and then finally to the main program again while reading along with the booklet.

 

 

 

 

 

For me Disc 3 wasn't exactly a HOLY SHIT OH WOW experience. From the songs, I had a rough or good idea what Childhood, Low Below and Stick With Me were or could be, that left Never-Song, Mothers and Believe - the first of which is an okay bit of throwaway with some not bad wordplay, the other two have great melodies which then both felt stronger in the score after hearing these, but unfortunately the singing just puts me off them completely, Mothers especially.

 

I fully expected one of the booklets to include the lyrics like the HP one, but they don't. The release is dedicated to Leslie Bricusse but doesn't highlight his actual contributions? I don't know what kind of rights fuckery it would involve, but surely if Bricusse was so involved in this release he wouldn't outright deny it himself? As it is now, listeners who are not fluent in Pyrate are just thrown into Low Below to fend for themselves until they find @Goldfingers' post up above!

 

The booklet also illuminated something I wondered while/after listening:  the musical aspect wasn't all envisioned as such from the start, but made up as they went along and aborted before it was finished. So what we get on this release isn't exactly a vision of a fleshed out musical that could have been, but sketches for 2/3rds or 3/4ths of a possible musical, only like half of which were properly "finished", recorded and filmed, only like half of which actually remained in the movie (don't quote me and "fix" the maths, you get it). But it did set my mind to thinking what could have been if it was envisioned as such from the start with more preproduction time: the Never-Feast could have been a huge centerpiece party scene with choreographed dance and song, with Peter wandering around bumping into everyone then suddenly joining in by the end; Mothers could have been reprised at the end with changed lyrics as Fathers; Childhood could have been reprised by Peter and the Lost Boys when he leaves...

 

Also, this being my first real deep encounter with the score, and seeing so many bonus stuff in the tracklist, it was just the teeniest bit disappointing that maybe apart from Banning Back Home (which is the same thing but more of it), the Cornucopia insert (which is kinda the same thing restructured), the short Farewell extension and the obviously marked added choral part, none of the alternates really jumped out at me like "Ooooooh neat, this is completely different!" That could just be down to me not being familiar enough with it all, and of course I'll do proper comparisons when making my edit to really find out what's different, and obviously it's not anywhere near a knock on this release, it's just the reality of the score already being mostly perfect as first envisioned.

 

 

 

And I think that's it. That's all the "negative" stuff out of the way.

 

 

 

Childhood is good and reinforces what could well be called the score's main theme, Stick With Me is really fun, and Low Below is insanely fun!  Also I grew to like When You're Alone a lot more after hearing how much it pops up in the score.

 

Now that I have it in hand and see that the printing made it just a bit more red (in the lettering and logo especially), I like the cover a lot. All the rest of the set looks great too! When crumbs made his custom cover we were shooting some ideas about what could make a good one and we both ended up on the amazing matte painting of Neverland (which he didn't end up using in the end) so I was really happy to see it in disc 1's tray! The credit that says Titus got clean paintings from ILM is real cool! I like how close it is to the HP ones in style, I love the colours, the decorative pattern and the recurring 45° rotated square motif all throughout. Eat your hearts out, other labels with your awful clone tool hackjobs.

 

I love the track by track, has a really nice flow to it and it's simple enough that you can keep up with the music instead of being bogged down in the details. Though even though I agree that the actual release booklet should just focus on the actual release, it does make me hunger for cue list spreadsheets and multiple-hour-long history podcasts... The last section with the more technical details is really nice too. And the first one with the movie context too!

 

 

 

Oh yeah and there's a score too! It's fucking awesome. A pretty heavy listen, it does a lot in its considerable length, when it starts it feels like it's Always-scaled but by the time we get to the third act it's more Return of the Jedi-scaled. I rewatched the movie on black friday, that helped a lot with appreciating the score, I had a better overview and idea of the whole thing and already had highlights and themes in my head. I love how much the movie allows the score to be the driving force, it pulls back and lets it blast out unedited in so many scenes!

 

I love all the themes, I love the Home Alone/HP sound, I love the choir, I love the pirate instruments, I love the darkness, I love the playfulness, I love the melancholy, I love the recording, I love the orchestra, seriously, they're goddamn insane! So is JW for writing all this! So far the pieces I was most familiar with from Hook were the S/W II pieces and going from that Lost Boys Ballet recording to this one with what feels like a doubled tempo was mindblowing.

 

I love Banning Back Home, it's so fun! Immediately makes me think of "how to surf the net" instructional VHSes or something.

I love Wendy's Entrance! So much awe and magic from the first orchestral cue.

I love The Stories Are True with Low Below and Hook's theme coming in to imply something deeper going on  that Peter can't remember.

I love Tink's Arrival! The bit in the movie where all we see is Peter looking at something and JW does all the special effects work all by himself describing the little light darting here and there, coming closer!

I love Flight to Neverland building and building to the Childhood climax.

I love everything in Pirate Town/Presenting the Hook. After my video, hearing the end without choir was very strange!

I love Draw Your Sword! Those scared Childhoods, those drawn out dark Low Belows!

I love Peter's Challenge really describing his fear and the kids' and Hook's disappointment!

I adore From Mermaids to Lost Boys! That opening with the choir!!! The first Believe! The mad Tinks, the wild Childhoods that remind me of theme statements from The Cowboys' Drums of Manhood/The Execution!

I love the mythic grandeur of Face of Pan as the hero of old is revealed!

I love everything about The Banquet/Never-Feast! The revision is much more refined and better structured, I can't imagine having to live with the other one for 30+ years when you know there's something better! Even if maybe the tempo slows down a bit too quickly.

I love Stop That Clock, from the creative ticking to the sad ending.

I love Home Run! It's every inspirational 90s sports movie's finale distilled into one!

I adoooore Peter Remembers and the Flying Sequence, it was a really affecting part of the movie and JW's a huge part of why it works.

I love how You Are the Pan takes Face of Pan to an even grander level.

I love the final battle! From the thorough creative exploration of so many themes in such varied action settings to the Korngoldian swashbuckler style, everything.

I love Farewell Neverland! No skimping on the emotional resolution after such a long powerhouse, and this has everything!

I love Exit Music! Such a bittersweet ending!

I love that God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen and Take Me Out to the Ball Game are in here! I can just imagine Jay telling Mike and JW "trust me guys, you DON'T want to give Holko any fuel!" I love the concertina medley too! Spielberg really needs to get his shit together and look past his personal feelings and just release all the proper deleted scenes, not just those tiny peanut fragments! More Bob Hoskins can never be bad.

 

So yeah. I'm happy.

[Faleel 5,355]

The Stories Are True (Alternate).

[crocodile 8,017]

Took me two days to get through the entire set. As mentioned before, I am not necessarily the biggest fan of this score. It often feels like it will give me diabetes. But it is also one of the scores I remember making big impression on me when I was a child. It is a work of enormous scope and ambition, I am constantly amazed by how many themes and colours Williams managed to include in this. This is probably one of the reasons why I sometimes find it so exhausting (sort of like Temple of Doom). But I had a blast listening to the new set, especially around this time of the year, and discovering the new nuggets here and there. Some really interesting song demos but they made the right decision to move away from that idea. I listened to the previous LLL set only once but will definitely revisit this way more frequently. I can completely see this set reigniting my childhood affection for this score in the same way HP set did wonders for my appreciation of Philosopher's Stone. I really enjoy reading the liner notes, too. It's always interesting to put these Williams scores in the context of his larger body of work and I do always enjoy the breakdowns of album tracks. Really lovely treat.

 

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Really Spielberg should have kept “childhood” sung by old wendy in the film and let williams/bricusse make an end credit song with it. It would have been nominated instead of when you are alone, its beautiful, less corny and who knows it could have beaten beauty and the beast… the latter does not have that great lyrics after all. But it was Menkens era so it may had not made a difference…

[Goldfingers 126]

6 hours ago, Holko said:

Spielberg really needs to get his shit together and look past his personal feelings and just release all the proper deleted scenes, not just those tiny peanut fragments! More Bob Hoskins can never be bad.

 

[Delorean90 42]

My package arrived yesterday--just in time, after a long couple of days capping a steady build of exhaustion. On this much-needed day off I began with Disc 3, and it was quite affecting. Hearing "Mothers" particularly was a major shift in context, as others have said, adding a lot of emotion to my listening as its theme plays in the finale. "Low Below--Pirate Sequence" is enormous fun, and all told it makes me wish we had the chance to see the songs more fully developed in the film, even if it didn't become quite the full-blown musical they feared people would expect after the pirate sequence. The "Exit Music" titling even makes way more sense now, I can absolutely imagine it playing after the conclusion of a stage musical version.

Indeed, having just finished the main program with the background of the songs and lyrics, it had me imagining how they might play out on stage. The terrific liner notes have also, often with simple matters of phrasing and expression, tapped into and reshaped my recollection and impression of the dramatic flow of the film and the score. It's a massive, poignant journey, and while there are elements I wished were more explicitly developed at times, I feel to a greater degree the way small moments in tandem with the music can help to flesh those out in the mind.

I've always loved Hook, but my appreciation has gone to a new level listening to this marvelous set. I'll probably have more to say on re-listen and once I have listened fully to the bonus sections of Discs 2 and 3, but for now I want to extend my utmost appreciation for John Williams, Leslie Bricusse, Michael Matessino, Jason, John, and all the people who worked so hard to bring this to fruition. Your efforts have brought much joy and warmth, and will continue to do so for years to come.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

13 hours ago, Presto said:

The Stories Are True (Alternate).

I dig this version of the cue too. Love the ominous approach Williams took with it!

[Faleel 5,355]

16 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

I dig this version of the cue too. Love the ominous approach Williams took with it!

It's kinda a precursor to POA.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

It is also sad beicusses peter pan musical from 2001 never took wings either.

[Bespin 8,483]

I believe I've listened to everything. It's interesting in the third disc to hear that some very well-known themes from Hook were initially songs. This makes me realize that John Williams is truly an unrecognized songwriter. Now, I would very much like for a songwriter to add lyrics to the score of E.T. or Jurassic Park. Thank you.

[Jay 37,369]

1 hour ago, Bespin said:

I would very much like for a songwriter to add lyrics to the score of E.T. or Jurassic Park. Thank you.

 

Here you go

 

 

[Bespin 8,483]

I knew it! Perfect combination of melody and lyrics!

 

[JW collector 47]

2 hours ago, Bespin said:

I believe I've listened to everything. It's interesting in the third disc to hear that some very well-known themes from Hook were initially songs. This makes me realize that John Williams is truly an unrecognized songwriter. Now, I would very much like for a songwriter to add lyrics to the score of E.T. or Jurassic Park. Thank you.

 

Agree on that.....  almost like he will not admit he is good doing songs.

 

Much of Williams music / themes  are very lyrical..... 

 

But just see how clever he is with  orchestration and  arrangements with OTHER composers / writers works: 

 

"Fiddler on the roof"......  "Goodbye mr chips" ....   almost like making them  his own.......

[Jay 37,369]

On 14/12/2023 at 9:00 PM, The Lost Folio said:

Do we know the reason why the extended Prologue was composed? Is it an unused revision or a discarded original version? (Not clear in the booklet notes.)

 

Pieces of four different takes made up the final performance edit used in the actual teaser trailer, and that performance edit was re-created digitally by Armin Steiner in 1991 for the OST album's digital master.  "Prologue" on the new set is Mike re-creating the same performance edit from the 1st gen material.

 

"Prologue (Extended Version)" is a new performance edit Mike made using just 2 of those 4 takes, with the goal of showcasing two ideas performed on some takes that didn't make it into the final performance edit: the extra viola rendition of Peter Pan's theme, and the extra boom-tzz near the end.  The entire track is 100% a different performance from "Prologue". 

 

I think the name was chosen because technically adding in the viola passage makes it longer, and also the 2012 release already had a track called "Prologue (Alternate)".  We didn't want people to expect this track to be the same as that (that track was just the final take all on its own with no cuts to other takes).

 

It isn't known why that viola rendition of Peter Pan's theme was only performed on the final take.  There's no reason to believe there were multiple edits of the footage or anything.

[Holko 9,529]

Oh wow so it's new, I just assumed it way the alternate on the old one! Any particular reason that it's the one in the main program even though it's not the one that was used? Just a Mike or JW preference?

[JohnnyD 1,223]

44 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Pieces of four different takes made up the final performance edit used in the actual teaser trailer, and that performance edit was re-created digitally by Armin Steiner in 1991 for the OST album's digital master.

 

"Prologue" on the new set is Mike re-creating the same performance edit from the 1st gen material.

 

"Prologue (Extended Version)" is a new performance edit Mike made using just 2 of those 4 takes, with the goal of showcasing two ideas performed on some takes that didn't make it into the final performance edit: the extra viola rendition of Peter Pan's theme, and the extra boom-tzz near the end.  The entire track is 100% a different performance from "Prologue".

 

It is stuff like this that make me excited to hear the podcast interview. Speaking of which, is that coming sometime this week?

[Brando 1,864]

18 minutes ago, JohnnyD said:

 

It is stuff like this that make me excited to hear the podcast interview. Speaking of which, is that coming sometime this week?

I believe someone said it would come soon, but they wanted listeners to listen to the music for a bit before doing a deep dive on the film/film score.

[The Lost Folio 183]

Thanks for your detailed answer!

 

56 minutes ago, Jay said:

It isn't known why that viola rendition of Peter Pan's theme was only performed on the final take.

 

That's the most puzzling thing to me! In the sketches, the viola theme is written where it should be and then crossed out, so I assumed it was Williams's initial idea to have it there, but eventually removed it (too long?). The fact that it was only performed in the last take would imply he ended up wanting to restore it after several takes of the revised version. That's what's puzzling me! This is also why it feels like the music actually heard in the trailer (and OST) is actually a sort of "Prologue (Shortened Version)" while the "Prologue (Extended Version)" is the full composition.

 

In any case, I'm glad MM put the "extended version" as the first track of the full program since those extra 6 bars of viola work very well under the continuation of the trumpet ostinato.

[Jay 37,369]

18 minutes ago, The Lost Folio said:

In the sketches, the viola theme is written where it should be and then crossed out,

 

It might only be crossed out on that sketch scan you are referring to because that is Ken Wannberg's sketch copies.  He wrote down at which bar to switch from one take to another for the requested performance edit, and the final performance edit used in the teaser trailer didn't include the viola passage.

 

18 minutes ago, The Lost Folio said:

I assumed it was Williams's initial idea to have it there, but eventually removed it (too long?). The fact that it was only performed in the last take would imply he ended up wanting to restore it after several takes of the revised version.

 

Maybe the teaser trailer got shortened after the version he was given that he wrote the sketch for, so when he showed up to record he had to shorten the composition and decided to cut those bars to accomplish that goal.  Then maybe once they felt they had gotten everything they needed for that version, he wanted to record a take with the viola line while everyone was there.  Maybe he had hoped to put that on the OST album, but then 6 months later at crunch time to get the OST album to the pressing plants before they were even done recording the score, they didn't have time for Armin to make a new digital edit.

 

All of this is just speculation, we really have no idea what happened.

[Jay 37,369]

On 17/12/2023 at 10:07 AM, Holko said:

The booklet also illuminated something I wondered while/after listening:  the musical aspect wasn't all envisioned as such from the start, but made up as they went along and aborted before it was finished.

 

On a script level, songs were always a part of this film.  The family was going to be at a school play where the kids in the play sing a song, the lost boys were going to have a song to chant while training Peter, and Maggie was going to sing to the enslaved children to remind of their mothers.  These were all songs sung in-universe, not the Musical thing where they are showstoppers with choreography and are for the benefit of the audience to get insight into what characters are thinking.

So Williams and Bricusse were hired to write initially just these three songs.  But Spielberg liked what they came up with so much, they kept writing and writing as he kept filming and filming, until eventually:

 

"I had nine songs," says Spielberg. "I photographed two of them and at [composer] John [William]'s request cut them out of the movie. John was the one who saw them cut together and said, 'This is not the right template for a musical.' So we abandoned nine months of work and I just told the straight story of Captain Hook." (source)

 

I believe by "template", Spielberg means that they did things backwards; to make a musical properly, you don't start with a completed movie script, then find places to stick songs into it.  You write the songs first that tell your story, and then you write the rest of the script around them.  So that's why Moira's Lullaby and Low Below were the only additional songs filmed and Childhood, Never-Song, and Stick With Me never made it past the demo stage.

 

And that's why only those original 3 songs (well, with Mothers being replaced by When You're Alone as the enslaved children subplot largely got dropped) are the ones that remain in the final cut.

 

On 17/12/2023 at 10:07 AM, Holko said:

But it did set my mind to thinking what could have been if it was envisioned as such from the start with more preproduction time: the Never-Feast could have been a huge centerpiece party scene with choreographed dance and song, with Peter wandering around bumping into everyone then suddenly joining in by the end; Mothers could have been reprised at the end with changed lyrics as Fathers; Childhood could have been reprised by Peter and the Lost Boys when he leaves...

 

I like your ideas!

 

 

On 17/12/2023 at 10:07 AM, Holko said:

Also, this being my first real deep encounter with the score, and seeing so many bonus stuff in the tracklist, it was just the teeniest bit disappointing that maybe apart from Banning Back Home (which is the same thing but more of it), the Cornucopia insert (which is kinda the same thing restructured), the short Farewell extension and the obviously marked added choral part, none of the alternates really jumped out at me like "Ooooooh neat, this is completely different!" That could just be down to me not being familiar enough with it all, and of course I'll do proper comparisons when making my edit to really find out what's different, and obviously it's not anywhere near a knock on this release, it's just the reality of the score already being mostly perfect as first envisioned.

 

Yes, this is a not a score where any cues were radically changed through revisions.  The biggest change is switching from Childhood to hinting at Mothers in the rewritten first half of "The Stories Are True".  Other than that, the revisions are slightly different versions of the same basic idea.  Going from a short Childhood with fun descent end-cap to full on Childhood with the full melody for the arrival in Neverland.  Delaying the start of the Lost Boys theme until they are seen after the closeups of the food for the Never-feast.  More elaborate fanfare for Peter's arrival at the final battle (and seemingly a longer take of Hook's reaction needing different music), more Lost Boys theme for their arrival.  A lot of the rest are just different ideas from different takes around the same time or shortly after (like Tink's arrival and the basketball game).

 

 

On 17/12/2023 at 10:07 AM, Holko said:

I grew to like When You're Alone a lot more after hearing how much it pops up in the score.

 

Me too!

[GerateWohl 4,370]

36 minutes ago, Jay said:

On a script level, songs were always a part of this film.  The family was going to be at a school play where the kids in the play sing a song, the lost boys were going to have a song to chant while training Peter, and Maggie was going to sing to the enslaved children to remind of their mothers.  These were all simple songs sung in-universe, not the Musical thing where they are showstoppers with choreography and are for the benefit of the audience to get insight into what characters are thinking.

 

But that's why Williams and Bricusse began writing songs in October of 1990, for those three songs the script required.  And it's no surprise those are the only songs remaining in the final film (with the obvious caveat that Mothers got replaced by When You're Alone and the enslaved children subplot was mostly dropped).  Because while yes, Spielberberg liked what Bricusse and Williams came up with for those scenes so much he thought maybe this was the time to finally do a full musical like he'd been wanting to do for so long and set them on writing more song options.... that's not how do a proper Musical: You don't start with a completed movie script, then find places to stick in songs that elucidate the ideas in the script.  You write the songs first that say what you wan to say, then write the rest of the script around them.  I think Williams realized this, based on this quote from Steven Spielberg from the summer of 2002:

 

"I had nine songs," says Spielberg. "I photographed two of them and at [composer] John [William]'s request cut them out of the movie. John was the one who saw them cut together and said, 'This is not the right template for a musical.' So we abandoned nine months of work and I just told the straight story of Captain Hook." (source)

That's interesting. Reading that I thought, that the original animated Disney movie Peter Pan also wasn't really a musical in that sense. Just every group in Neverland, apart from the mermaids, gets introduced by a song. The pirates song, the lost boys song, the indians song, Then a lullaby by Wendy for the lost boys, and another pirates song. And the choire singing on the flight from and to Neverland. But apart from the second pirate song the songs have hardly anything to do with the plot. They are more some kind of introductions of the characters or groups.

 

Of course that introduction approach wouldn't have worked for Hook as the characters are already known and just revisited in this story.

[Faleel 5,355]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

That's interesting. Reading that I thought, that the original animated Disney movie Peter Pan also wasn't really a musical in that sense. Just every group in Neverland, apart from the mermaids, gets introduced by a song. The pirates song, the lost boys song, the indians song, Then a lullaby by Wendy for the lost boys, and another pirates song. And the choire singing on the flight from and to Neverland. But apart from the second pirate song the songs have hardly anything to do with the plot. They are more some kind of introductions of the characters or groups.

 

Of course that introduction approach wouldn't have worked for Hook as the characters are already known and just revisited in this story.

And the Main Title is a song too right?

[Jay 37,369]

Here's an NPR piece on Hook, featuring Leslie Bricusse, Tim Grieving, and Mike Matessino!

 

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/19/1220028578/spielbergs-1991-movie-hook-was-nearly-a-musical-now-its-score-has-been-released

[Tydirium 1,167]

"Now the never-heard score with tunes by John Williams has been recorded and released."

 

Lol, this makes it sound like a re-recording. Great piece, though!

[Levraibond 14]

Listened to the 2 discs until 3am last night. 3rd disc today.

 

Simply amazing ! The new stuff I was completely oblivious about, paired with an unprecedented sound quality took me totally by surprise. So much so I shed a few tears. An Ultimate Edition worth of its name, without a doubt. The booklet was very informative and really generous in that regard.

Third CD is an amazing discovery. One of which you can't even dream of, given you'd have to know it even exists. I didn't.

 

Can't thank Mike Matessino, LLL and everybody involved enough for this long awaited grail. So happy to own it and to be able to support this kind of release.

Now I just wish I could forget it so I could experience again the roller coaster of emotions I went through when listening to it for the first time. Because that's what it was for me : A completely and unexpected rediscovery of a beloved score I though I knew so well.

[The Lost Folio 183]

Now that we have 2 complete/unedited versions of Banning Back Home, which one is your favorite?

 

They are both similarly structured as ABA': A introduces the main material, B starts with the solo bass leading into improvisation (and a brief and bright new flute theme in A major) and (after a long drum vamp) A' concludes with a shortened reprise of the beginning. Both versions have the same final section, but the film version cuts a lot of material from the opening section. Also, in the original version ("Extended Version" on the expansion), the new flute theme appears before the improv, while in the film version it cuts the improv in two.

 

For me, the form of the "Extended Version" is more coherent, and its longer improv builds a lot more intensity before the concluding section. But I can see how the film version could be more pleasing since you get to the improv much sooner, and it's spread out over two distinct halves around the bright flute theme, forming a sort of ABCBA.

 

So, which one do you prefer?

[Jay 37,369]

In my personal opinion,

 

Extended Version > Film Version AINEC

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The extended version is very cool for its novelty. The film version is more familiar. 
 

I will probably ise the extended one in my program.

[Holko 9,529]

So I just wanted to go through the themes and songs in as named in the booklet and exactly what they could represent in the final score  for myself, but why not post it and ask the experts what they think?

 

Let's start with the songs: Childhood is probably the best name for the usage of the melodies. I think it's the most often used, the de facto main theme of the score, standing for all kinds of aspects of childhood: Peter's connection to his kids (not for example the end of Ultimate War, for Maggie screaming for help at which point Peter immediately goes off to help her and leaves Hook for Rufio), his connection to the Lost Boys, the Lost Boys in general (see From Mermaids to Lost Boys), Peter's connection to his past directly (like in Remembering Childhood/The Flying Sequence, or very notably in The Never-Feast right when he starts to use his imagination) or indirectly through Wendy (early cues and when they interact at the end), or even Neverland itself in general since it's childhood itself given shape (Flight to Neverland).

 

When You're Alone despite its reassuring lyrics ends up as a theme for the kids' homesickness, either literally near the end or less literally for Jack's yearning for a strong father figure (notable appearances for this are Saying Goodnight when Peter gives him the watch, Stop That Clock when Jack breaks down crying and Home Run first as he starts thinking of home for a moment, then when he celebrates with the pirates). It even appears at the end of Never-Feast, partially as an intro to the song but it works for the lost boys missing Tootles and Tootles' homesickness for Neverland.

 

Low Below is not very complex in its usage, I think it's just used as a general piratey theme.

 

Stick With Me is an aspect of Hook, used in lots of varied ways for his (and Smee's) scheming (Smee's Plan, Ultimate War), seduction (Hook's Lesson, Stop That Clock!) and cult of personality (Presenting the Hook).

 

Mothers is very interesting. I feel that once again the usage is in spite of its lyrics of simple reassurance of love, (which was probably simpler for this one since the lyrics are not in the movie), JW found something deeper in its melody. As the booklet notes, the first two notes' interval ties it to Childhood, and its prominent appearances include Tootles missing Neverland in Forgotten How To Fly, and the latter half of Farewell Neverland, for Peter returning to his family. I think whereas Childhood refers to Peter's childishness, this is meant for his newfound maturity, remembering and embracing his past instead of forcing his kids to grow up, but not getting bogged down in playing kid. Tootles has also apparently matured healthily enough to remember and miss his childhood and Neverland.

 

Believe's name is appropriate too, appearing when Peter's confronted by the reality of his situation and forced to believe things, first seeing all of Neverland (From Mermaids to Lost Boys), seeing his younger self in the water's reflection (Follow That Shadow) and finding the relics and old memories in the hideout (Remembering Childhood), then taking a bittersweet turn and playing for the realisation that he'll have to go home and al these experiences will only be real to him if he keeps believing them, like in the scenes of him having to remember his real world life (Tink Grows Up), his goodbyes to the Lost Boys (Farewell Neverland) and our goodbye to the world of the film and score (Exit Music).

 

And then the themes not coming from the songs:

Jolly Roger - Notable moments are the prologue, the kidnapping sequence (including a closeup of a model Jolly Roger and the first glimpse of his damage), Peter's Challenge when he gleefully tells Peter to just fly, and The Sword Fight when Peter turns back to face him and their duel is finally about to start. Overall I'd say this is in general for his looming shadow, Hook's Threat.

 

Peter Pan - pretty straightforward, plays when Peter finally remembers and becomes the Pan again, then all throughout the final battle. Also suggested before in Peter's Challenge, and in The Never-Feast for his reaction to cutting the coconut out of muscle memory.

 

Tinkerbell - Used for her pretty consistently in her scenes, except for a couple statements like the very opening over shots of kids watching the play which at that point is at Peter crying about his shadow (though there's an edit in the music for the movie so I guess it could have been longer and could have started with some Peter and Tink scene in the play), and in The Sword Fight, playing on bells when the kids confront Hook with the clocks, playing more on their impish creativity. For me the opening interval also seems similar to Childhood's and Mothers', which makes sense since she's the one successfully motivating Peter's journey to rediscover his childhood and reach his new maturity. I saw a fan theory that originally Tink made a deal with Hook to bring Peter back (he could have his old enemy to hate and fight and she could have her beloved boy back), that's how he got back to Kensington to kidnap the kids, using her dust.

 

Hook - Basically a simpler ominous fanfare to stand in for Stick With Me or Jolly Roger when their grandeur and long-linedness are too much or not required and Low Below would be too playful.

 

Pan - A grand melody with a mythic depth, playing for the Lost Boys first accepting that their leader is back, even if out of shape and not remembering, and for the corresponding scene after he regains his memories and really is truly back, more than he'd like. The film also tracks it for his goodbyes to the Lost Boys, further tying them together.

 

The Lost Boys - A comedically misfitting royal processional for the Boys' foodfight which in the final battle gets turned into their battle fanfare.