GerateWohl 4,370 Posted July 29, 2021 Share Posted July 29, 2021 Just now, May the Force be with You said: Art is subjective. I personnaly don't think that I'm able to decide what is art and what is not so I'll say that everything is art as long as the people who makes it decide to call it this way and then I'll see if I like it or not. Art isn't always good I think Yes, it is like Anne Sophie Mutter said, there is brillant classical music and bad classical music, same applies to movie scores. Raiders of the SoundtrArk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted July 29, 2021 Share Posted July 29, 2021 51 minutes ago, GerateWohl said: Why not? If you consider all those people around us calling themselves artists claiming that all their creative output is some kind of art, how could you think, that any of the music written by John Williams is not art? What's art music then, contemporary art music, and why is Williams' music not art? Not everything is a art. The mona lisa is art. The Lego's Mona Lisa is not. Too many here associates craft and art as the same thing. Music is subjective but objective at the same time. Degrees of separation may be hard to discern. My limited piano ability is my craft. It will never rise to art but I am sure some here rise way above. 1 hour ago, GerateWohl said: Why not? If you consider all those people around us calling themselves artists claiming that all their creative output is some kind of art, how could you think, that any of the music written by John Williams is not art? What's art music then, contemporary art music, and why is Williams' music not art? If all music is "Art" the is all music the same. Is the music of the Beatles the same as the music of U2. Regardless of personal preference its all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post artguy360 1,843 Posted July 29, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 29, 2021 Lincoln, for me, was JW's last masterpiece. I am thinking more about the album than the score as heard in the film, though that is very good as well. The Lincoln OST sounds like a complete and beautiful expression of everything the movie is about. It feels immaculate, minus the source music-ish pieces. The themes are numerous, beautiful, and flow seamlessly from one to the next. The end credits suite is sublime. Do we know if JW performed on piano for any of it? crumbs, Tom, Smeltington and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,364 Posted July 29, 2021 Share Posted July 29, 2021 We don't know, but I suspect he didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,370 Posted July 29, 2021 Share Posted July 29, 2021 1 hour ago, JoeinAR said: Not everything is a art. The mona lisa is art. The Lego's Mona Lisa is not. Too many here associates craft and art as the same thing. Music is subjective but objective at the same time. Degrees of separation may be hard to discern. My limited piano ability is my craft. It will never rise to art but I am sure some here rise way above. If all music is "Art" the is all music the same. Is the music of the Beatles the same as the music of U2. Regardless of personal preference its all the same. That is why I asked for a contemporary positive example. It is too easy to drop Mona Lisa or Beethoven and still not making clear what we are actually talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted July 30, 2021 Author Share Posted July 30, 2021 10 hours ago, artguy360 said: Lincoln, for me, was JW's last masterpiece. I am thinking more about the album than the score as heard in the film, though that is very good as well. The Lincoln OST sounds like a complete and beautiful expression of everything the movie is about. It feels immaculate, minus the source music-ish pieces. The themes are numerous, beautiful, and flow seamlessly from one to the next. The end credits suite is sublime. I watched the movie Lincoln only once on DVD. It was a decent movie (like 95% of Spielberg movies), but honestly it didn't leave much of an impression on me, not even Lewis's much-lauded performance. I think that may have negatively influenced my opinion of the score. Here we probably have another case where the score just takes a vibrant life of its own--it becomes much more than a part of a movie, it begins to overshadow the movie itself, for which it was written in the first place.... Actually not a rare occurrence, when it comes to John Williams! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Score 770 Posted July 30, 2021 Share Posted July 30, 2021 I share the opinion that most of JW's scores are masterful. To answer the thread question, I choose to define his "masterpieces" as those scores which belong to my top 10 of his works, then I select those which were composed last. According to this criterion, my answers are HP3 (2004), and whatever was composed last between A.I. and HP1 (both released in 2001). If I had chosen to look at his top 20, my answers would have been different, as the scores written after 2004 definitely include some top 20 material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. A. Ron 1,742 Posted July 30, 2021 Share Posted July 30, 2021 TFA is in my mind his most recent masterpiece. Before that, I’d consider all 4 of his scores from 2005 to be masterpieces as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,364 Posted July 30, 2021 Share Posted July 30, 2021 But what is art? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tom 4,658 Posted July 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 30, 2021 20 minutes ago, Jay said: But what is art? "That which John Williams does well, and what many others attempt to do." Cerebral Cortex, Jay, Edmilson and 2 others 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 797 Posted July 30, 2021 Share Posted July 30, 2021 1993 Schindler’s List 2001 Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone Of course, Williams has scored many truly great and excellent scores in between and afterwards, but I think Williams has written 10 scores that can be regarded as genuine ‘masterpieces’ and of those, Schindler’s List and the first Harry Potter scores are the last two. Josh500 and Docteur Qui 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,370 Posted July 30, 2021 Share Posted July 30, 2021 39 minutes ago, Jay said: But what is art? Art is the stuff that artists create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Josh500 1,615 Posted July 30, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted July 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Jay said: But what is art? Earth without John Williams's music would just be "eh"... Tom Guernsey, Edmilson and Smeltington 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted August 1, 2021 Author Share Posted August 1, 2021 On 7/30/2021 at 8:19 AM, Score said: I share the opinion that most of JW's scores are masterful. To answer the thread question, I choose to define his "masterpieces" as those scores which belong to my top 10 of his works... I know that many people think like that, and that's their right by all means, but I don't agree at all. A work of art should be judged for what it is, regardless of who created it. That's what I strongly believe in. Otherwise... Let me give you an example. Let's take the score of Home Alone. This probably isn't in your Top 10 John Williams scores, so you don't consider it a masterpiece. But if a lesser composer, say, Patrick Williams had written Home Alone, the exact same score, you'd all of a sudden consider it a masterpiece? Because all of Patrick Williams's other scores are just forgettable trash? That doesn't make sense at all. Either a work of art is a masterpiece or not, regardless of the name of the composer. Consequently, I submit that John Williams has written dozens and dozens (perhaps as many as 50!) masterpieces during his long, long career.... Not just what somebody considers his Top 10. Gurkensalat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Score 770 Posted August 1, 2021 Share Posted August 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Josh500 said: I know that many people think like that, and that's their right by all means, but I don't agree at all. A work of art should be judged for what it is, regardless of who created it. That's what I strongly believe in. Otherwise... Let me give you an example. Let's take the score of Home Alone. This probably isn't in your Top 10 John Williams scores, so you don't consider it a masterpiece. But if a lesser composer, say, Patrick Williams had written Home Alone, the exact same score, you'd all of a sudden consider it a masterpiece? Because all of Patrick Williams's other scores are just forgettable trash? That doesn't make sense at all. Either a work of art is a masterpiece or not, regardless of the name of the composer. Consequently, I submit that John Williams has written dozens and dozens (perhaps as many as 50!) masterpieces during his long, long career.... Not just what somebody considers his Top 10. Well, it's a matter of definitions. The word "masterpieces" is sometimes used to denote an author's best works within his oeuvre, or in other cases to denote the best works in a certain medium, independently of the author. In this second case, I would maybe say that his most recent masterpieces are "War Horse" and "The BFG". Bespin and Josh500 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,526 Posted August 1, 2021 Share Posted August 1, 2021 And in its original meaning I think it just covers the work that granted the artist the "master" title, after which they may well have gone on to create many many better things too. GerateWohl and Fabulin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted August 1, 2021 Share Posted August 1, 2021 On 7/30/2021 at 5:21 PM, Josh500 said: Earth without John Williams's music would just be "eh"... What's the "earth"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted August 1, 2021 Author Share Posted August 1, 2021 On 8/1/2021 at 7:42 AM, Holko said: And in its original meaning I think it just covers the work that granted the artist the "master" title, after which they may well have gone on to create many many better things too. Quote In modern use, a masterpiece is a creation in any area of the arts that has been given much critical praise, especially one that is considered the greatest work of a person's career or to a work of outstanding creativity, skill, profundity, or workmanship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted August 1, 2021 Share Posted August 1, 2021 Obviously two of his last scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 For some reason, I don't find myself revisiting TROS too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 On 7/28/2021 at 5:46 PM, Jay said: But when it comes down to it, The Force Awakens and The Rise Of Skywalker are masterpieces too I'm afraid the term 'masterpiece' is rather useless then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post artguy360 1,843 Posted August 3, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 3, 2021 I could never consider TFA, TLJ, or TROS masterpieces. Not just because of how the scores are treated in the film, mostly TFA and TROS, but also just the music itself. It's all well and good, but not fresh ground and not new highs for JW. Brundlefly, MaxTheHouseelf and Docteur Qui 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco 685 Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 On 8/3/2021 at 2:42 AM, artguy360 said: I could never consider TFA, TLJ, or TROS masterpieces. Not just because of how the scores are treated in the film, mostly TFA and TROS, but also just the music itself. It's all well and good, but not fresh ground and not new highs for JW. Listen again to 'Farewell' from TROS The sequel trilogy is full of highs but they're subtle and not always in the places you expect them to be, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted August 4, 2021 Author Share Posted August 4, 2021 On 8/2/2021 at 11:31 AM, SteveMc said: For some reason, I don't find myself revisiting TROS too much. Same. I hate to admit it, but I haven't even seen the movie yet. Maybe my opinion of the score will change once I do. Joni Wiljami 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 Haven't seen it either, and the score is quite disjointed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,843 Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 10 hours ago, Remco said: Listen again to 'Farewell' from TROS The sequel trilogy is full of highs but they're subtle and not always in the places you expect them to be, IMO. Farewell is a great track but not new territory for JW or higher than his previous highs. It's very good, maybe great, but JW is consistently great. Rey's theme is a masterpiece for sure, especially how it is used across the trilogy, but no single ST score is a masterpiece, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Score 770 Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 10 hours ago, Josh500 said: I hate to admit it, but I haven't even seen the movie yet. Good for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted August 4, 2021 Author Share Posted August 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Score said: Good for you! I actually intended to see it. That was before Covid engulfed the world like the plague.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted August 5, 2021 Share Posted August 5, 2021 I dunno ,I consider some of Williams recent pieces some of his best of all times. Galaxy's Edge Symphonic Suite and Rise of Skywalker are both quintessential Williams tracks. Rebellion is Reborn and Adventures of Han are great too. The last 2 star Wars scores are amazing (factoring the complete scores not just the OST's) .TFA somewhat less for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted August 5, 2021 Author Share Posted August 5, 2021 1 hour ago, King Mark said: I dunno ,I consider some of Williams recent pieces some of his best of all times. Galaxy's Edge Symphonic Suite and Rise of Skywalker are both quintessential Williams tracks. Rebellion is Reborn and Adventures of Han are great too. The last 2 star Wars scores are amazing (factoring the complete scores not just the OST's) .TFA somewhat less for me. So your last JW masterpieces are TROS and Han? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothless 963 Posted August 5, 2021 Share Posted August 5, 2021 • PoA • TLJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docteur Qui 1,544 Posted August 5, 2021 Share Posted August 5, 2021 I'd say his last true masterpiece is Philosopher's Stone, and before that Schindler's List. The former is the absolute zenith of the fantasy/adventure/magic writing that began with Star Wars and percolated throughout the 80s and early 90s and his most iconic scores. He was clearly more inspired than he'd been since Hook, and it shows in the music. Schindler's List speaks for itself. It's raw emotion, pain, horror and hope distilled into a surprisingly cohesive sound. I'm generally lukewarm (but respectful) towards JW's drama scores, his post 2000 ones are excellent in the film but not too interesting to listen to outside, while SL is that perfect beast of both worlds. I don't like to bandy around the word masterpiece as, for me, it implies the absolute cream-of-the-crop of an artist's output. No composer in my opinion has more than a handful of true masterpieces, which is the point (it's all relative in the end). Scores like PoA and TPM are absolutely remarkable and even more enjoyable to listen to than the above two, but in terms of my perception of the emotional labour involved and the corresponding quality of output, these two are the obvious choice. Tom Guernsey and Smeltington 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellosh 3,419 Posted August 5, 2021 Share Posted August 5, 2021 War Horse A.I. Josh500 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted August 6, 2021 Author Share Posted August 6, 2021 12 hours ago, Bellosh said: War Horse A.I. Good choices! Bellosh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alejandro 26 Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 On 7/28/2021 at 8:57 AM, Aenae said: For me Nixon might even be Williams's best ever work as a whole. Close Encounters is the only other challenger I can think of. But I tend to not like the first half of the CE3K score that much, only the second half of the score is really good and where things start going. I think I favor Nixon as a totality as a soundtrack. CE3K has the highest peaks of any Williams score in its best few cues, there is no doubt about that, but as an whole score album from start to finish, I gravitate toward Nixon more. For me, most of Williams's other scores tend to be flawed in some major way, which makes me appreaciate them less (which is also why I don't consider any of his works to be a masterpiece; a masterpiece for me must be something truly special and legendary). Nixon as a whole just works and I can't think of any obvious big flaws that it has, unlike most of Williams's other scores, I have also always liked its darkness too, that it eschews his usual brassy, extroverted pomp for a more subdued approach - many other JW scores are way too optimistic for my taste. Nixon was also more progressive than many other JW scores too and as I said, it didn't have any big flaws in it that i'm able to detect at least. I enjoy Nixon as a whole, whereas CE3K I for most part only revisit my favorite few cues. So I really like Nixon and will continue to regard it as JW's most underrated score. Nixon is just awesome. The trailer music just works every time for me. As some of you know, I teach high school US history, and for a CNN documentary on the JFK / Nixon election we watch in class I overlapped Nixon and JFK music all throughout the documentary, especially the Turbulent Years track and Miami Convention track (come on, that ending!) BrotherSound 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,533 Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 MINORITY REPORT and PRISONER OF AZKABAN. End of. On 7/30/2021 at 2:52 PM, Jay said: But what is art? Fuck art. Let's dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,504 Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 3 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said: Fuck art. Let's dance. Is that a David Bowie quote? If not, it should have been. Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 Josh500 and Naïve Old Fart 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted August 22, 2021 Author Share Posted August 22, 2021 18 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said: MINORITY REPORT and PRISONER OF AZKABAN. End of. End of? On 8/21/2021 at 1:12 PM, Alejandro said: Nixon is just awesome. The trailer music just works every time for me. What's the trailer music? "The Turbulent Years"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 Yes. Josh500 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Schilkeman 964 Posted August 24, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 24, 2021 I think almost all JW scores display a high level of craft, and in that sense they are masterful in that master composer wrote them. Defining the term "masterpiece" is an exercise in naval-gazing, but I like to think of the Voyager Golden Record. What JW scores would be in the running to go on a new golden record? Like most composers, only a handful of pieces in their output, no matter well they are made. Beethoven's 4th is a great symphony, but it isn't going on in place of the 3rd, 5th, or 9th. There's only a few JW scores I consider a 'masterpiece" at that kind of level, and the most recent are The BFG and Schindler's List. That's not saying he didn't write some amazing scores in between, they just don't get to go to Pluto. Bespin, Will and Josh500 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted August 24, 2021 Author Share Posted August 24, 2021 13 minutes ago, Schilkeman said: There's only a few JW scores I consider a 'masterpiece" at that kind of level, and the most recent are The BFG and Schindler's List. The BFG? That's a new one. I think I've listened to that one from start to finish not even once. I like the main title, though--kinda charming and fluffy, makes me think of Partick Doyle's Potter score. Tell me what makes The BFG stand out for you so much? What's the masterful aspect of this score, IYO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Schilkeman 964 Posted August 24, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 24, 2021 The orchestration alone may be the best of his entire career, which is saying something. He wields the orchestra like Mickey Mouse conducting the sea, new colors come in from all directions, and is that 6 flutes in "Blowing Dreams?" I'm not sure he's been this intent on color for color's sake since Close Encounters. Stylistically, it's in the same wheelhouse as Hook and Harry Potter, with a dash of E.T. and the lighter parts of Star Wars, and while it has no shortage of themes compared to those scores, it is more cohesive. The themes are more subtle, and easier to "lose" in a sense, but the orchestration and complex harmony make up the difference. The score is as harmonically complex as the orchestration, and while JW has always been a sponge when it comes to the Russian masters (Prokofiev and Tchaikovsky specifically) the harmonies on this score sound more personal and "true," if that makes any sense. He doesn't seem to be writing "in a style." It just sounds like John Williams. As always, his counterpoint and polyphonic writing separate him from almost every film composer in history. He has few equals, in this regard, in the last two centuries and it is on full display in the BFG. Music critic for the New York Times, Harold C. Schonberg wrote a review of Vaughn Williams's 9th Symphony, which I will quote here, but seems to fit The BFG nicely. "the symphony is packed with strong personal melody from beginning to end ... A mellow glow suffuses the work, as it does the work of many veteran composers who seem to gaze retrospectively over their careers ... the Ninth Symphony is a masterpiece" If this is John Williams looking back, well, what a view. Tom Guernsey, Gurkensalat, Bayesian and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,526 Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 I loved the BFG in the film. Slightly disappointed by the OST, don't want to get into it more until we get it complete... well... one day... Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,370 Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 I like the BfG OST. Mainly, because it concentrates on the music written by Williams. The actual score in the film contained a lot of classical source music if I remember correctly. So, in this case I am not necessarily looking forward to an expansion. But of course it would be a different experience. Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,843 Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 There's classical source music in The BFG? I've only seen the movie once but I don't remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,370 Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 Almost all the scenes in Buckigham Palace with the queen, as far as I remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 3 hours ago, Schilkeman said: Beethoven's 4th is a great symphony, but it isn't going on in place of the 3rd, 5th, or 9th. And the wonderful 6th! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,364 Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 The BFG film contains 88 minutes of John Williams score. The OST album is 64 minutes, but a bunch of material on it is not in the film, and a surprising amount of what you hear in the film is repeated tracked material, so much more than 24 minutes remains unreleased! Some of what's unreleased are definite highlights of what he recorded, such as Bedtime Story and The Queen's Helicopters. Gurkensalat and Will 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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