SPOILER TALK: Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny

[Demodex 557]

5 hours ago, Tom said:

It is not all that true to life.  I know many, many people who have lost children to war, sickness, accidents.  In all cases, it either drew them closer together or made no substantial impact on their relationship.  It feels like cheap writing to me (more so the second time after TFA). 

 

Actually, it is true to life.  Divorces are quite common when a child dies.  

[Tom 4,661]

9 hours ago, Demodex said:

 

Actually, it is true to life.  Divorces are quite common when a child dies.  

adult children?  I would need to see some stats on that.  

[Demodex 557]

Depends on if you consider an 18 or 19-year old an adult in a parent's eyes. 

Young children though?  Yes. 

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

How old would mutt in the vietnam war? He was born between 1936 and 1939?

 

mid to late twenties?

[Andy 4,138]

Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny - Andy's Head Canon Revised Ending:

 

Interior: Indy's Apartment

 

Helena:  You're meant to be here, Indy.  Here.

Indy: For Who?

 

The door to Indy's apartment opens.  To Indy's surprise, MARION enters along with TEDDY, and SALLAH.

 

Indy: Marion, what are you doing?

Marion: Putting groceries away. There wasn't a scrap of food in this place.

Indy: No, really.

Marion:  Someone told me you were back.

 

Before Indy can ask who, the door opens again.  The crew is joined by MUTT WILLIAMS wearing an officer's uniform, walking through the door with a wiggling ALASKAN MALAMUTE PUPPY in his arms.  Indy is in shock.  He rises in tears, and embraces his son by the shoulders, the puppy licking both of their faces.  

 

Indy: Junior!  I...

Mutt: Here, old man.  You're gonna need some help getting your strength back.

 

Mutt hands the puppy to Indy, who looks to Helena, puzzled.

 

Indy: How?

Helena: I brought you back to avoid changing the course of history.  Seems somehow, we were there long enough to do just that.

Indy:  But -

Helena:  That's the thing about Destiny.  It can't be predicted or explained.

 

Marion looks at Mutt and then to Helena.

 

Marion:  Someone told me you were back.  Are you back, Indy?

The puppy begins to squirm in Indy's arms.

 

Helena:  Looks like he doesn't know what he's got there.

Marion: Well I know what I've got here.

 

Indy and Marion embrace with a gentle kiss.  Mutt wraps his arms around them both.  The others are beaming, almost breaking into applause.  The puppy barks, breaking the awkward silence. 

 

Mutt:  He's gonna need a name, pops.

 

Indy lifts the dog, staring into its eyes.  His own welling with tears.

 

Indy:  George.  He seems like a George to me.

 

The others laugh.

 

Helena:  Why don't we go get some ice cream, kid?

Teddy: Marion just bought some.

Helena: I know a better place.

Sallah:  You can never have too much ice cream.  Are you well enough to walk, Indy?

 

Exterior: The streets of New York.  A flute and snare version of the Raiders March is heard.   POV is ground level, following the puppy walking.  We draw back to see a makeshift collar to which Indy's bullwhip is attached as a leash.  Indy is dressed in his hat and jacket, but still bandaged and in some pain as he walks George.  Marion, Mutt, Sallah, Helena, and Teddy are all walking together chattering and enjoying the day.  Indy regards the dog, who is yanking on the whip impatiently wanting to walk faster.

 

Helena:  Don't yank the collar so hard!  You'll strangle him, Indy!

 

Voice (Offscreen): You call him Doctor Jones, Doll!

 

The crew stops to see they are in front of a 1969 kung fu dojo.  In the doorway we see SHORT ROUND.

 

Short Round:  Indy!  You're back!

 

Short Round's arms are wide as he runs to join the group.  They all laugh and embrace.  The camera POV is above and rising slowly higher.  We see the whole crew exchanging stories and laughing.  Teddy attempts to pick Short Round's pocket, who stops him with lightning speed.  George is barking as the RAIDERS MARCH rises to its full glory.  Credits begin to roll over the happy gathering in the streets of New York.

 

END

 

 

 

 

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,536]

Hmm.

$152,000,000 worldwide opening weekend was, probably, not what The Mouse was expecting.

[Alex 2,835]

I finally watched the film.

 

I was really enjoying it… until the end. The film just kind of wraps up very quickly.

 

I have a feeling they planned for Indy to stay in the past and sort of become part of history himself, then the Mouse freaked out and reshot it (the background looked very fake in some of those Syracuse scenes).

[Jay 37,369]

22 hours ago, Jay said:

I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere but Mads Mikkelsen was deaged for thr prologue too right? 

 

I think this question got lost in the page change 

[Romão 2,274]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

 

I think this question got lost in the page change 

 

He was, but I read somewhere they used a different technique for his de-aging than they used for Ford. I assume it was because it wasn't as extreme and the didn't own as much unused footage as they did of young Ford

[Romão 2,274]

This will be a fairly long and scattered post with my thoughts on the movie, so please bear with me.

 

I ended up enjoying this more than I expected, but I reckon it’s much more due to the ideas and concepts it presents than the execution itself, which I actually found to be considerably lacking.

 

First of all, I used to think you cannot possibly make an Indy movie without Harrison Ford. And while that remains to me as true as ever, I feel even more strongly now that you cannot make an Indiana Jones movie without Steven Spielberg. And even accounting for the shortcomings of KOTCS, the fact is that his directorial flair, his camera setups, his cinematic language are so integral to what made those first three films what they are, that when you remove him from the equation, you might have something that occasionally looks like the real thing, but it definitely does not move like the real thing.

 

And that’s one of the main problems I have with this movie. It is bloated. It has quite a bit of fat that absolutely needed to be trimmed off. Scenes drag a bit longer than they should. Things are shown and never implied. Some subplots either go nowhere or serve no narrative purpose whatsoever. And say what you will about those first three movies, they don’t have an ounce of fat in them. They are 2 hour movie trailers, and I mean that in the best possible way. 

 

And one of the main reasons why those movies move so fast and feel so breezy without ever feeling rushed or that crucial scenes were left on the cutting room floor comes down to Spielberg’s visual storytelling, by which with just a few seconds of footage, important information is given to the audience. Or how he can accomplish in a single shot what lesser directors need 4 or 5 separate shots to accomplish, with the necessary accompanying cuts  A few examples:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We had none of these camera setups in this movie. And it robs the movie of the energy, thrust and propulsive narrative that is so integral to the original trilogy. 

 

And it’s a bit of a shame, really. I’m among the ones that thought that making another Indiana Jones movie was an awful idea. And yet, on a purely conceptual level, I do think Mangold’s approach, story ideas and concepts are actually pretty solid. They would’ve sold me on the project:

 

• The Macguffin is fascinating and interesting, while still being different enough from previous Macguffins and is tied thematically to the inevitability of incorporating Indy’s aging into the story. 
• They found a really ingenious way to have a Nazi villain in the 60’s, by making him a cryptonazi that was recruited through Operation Overcast and was instrumental in USA’s Space Program.
• The plan of the main villain and the way to achieve it was somewhat surprising and interesting.
• The opening sequence was really enticing on a conceptual level.

 

And yet, I feel like all these great ideas came up invariably short. 

 

The quest for the Dial felt like a series of fetch quests, getting from point A to B through almost instantaneous puzzle solving, with the villains chasing the heroes and catching up with them at each destination. And although I do give the movie credit for trying something really bold and different for the movie’s climax, I do wonder if it wouldn't have been cooler if they actually went back to the days of WW2. And one thing that really bothered me is that the last lesson Indiana Jones ever gave was about the Battle of Syracuse and Archimedes’ involvement in it. I mean, how convenient can you get? In all previous movies, the subject of his classes was always unrelated to the story’s main quest.

 

Voller’s role in the Space Program and his recruitment through Operation Overcast was barely alluded to. It would’ve been more interesting if he was spearheading a whole secret Nazi revival within Nasa itself or something. As it stands, he just seemed like a really prestigious scientist that had two goons at his service and that was the full extent of his influence. The rest of the devotees that joined him in that doomed final flight felt they came out of nowhere.

 

His plan to try to assure Nazi victory by killing Hitler was a cool concept that really could’ve been further explored. And the revelation of this intent is done in such a matter-of-factly way that it really loses a lot of its potential impact. I wonder if they did indeed went back to 1939 and could have had some interesting moral dilemmas in whether to allow Voller to go through with his plan or not. Would murdering Hitler save more lives down the road or would it indeed bring the victory of Nazi Germany with the long term terrible consequences attached to it?

 

As for the opening sequence, it really won’t go in the de-aging process. It works mostly fine and it really was the only way to tackle this sort of sequence. The setting was great, the concept really cool, but it was simply overlong, overdone and a bit repetitive. And the whole thing with the Spear of Longinus being a fake and Voller suggesting his superiors to take the Antikythera instead felt a bit nonsensical. The sequence with the anti-air guns hitting the carriages as the train traveled through a large bend were admittedly exciting, but there’s no helping the feeling that Spielberg would’ve had a field day with this sort of material.

 

Another shortcoming I think the movie has is the humor. The verbal jokes rarely land, while the visual jokes, so integral to the Indiana Jones series, are few and far between. 

 

But again, the main problem is the bloat, the fat. And not only it is found in the sequences themselves, but also on totally irrelevant plot threads and characters. The CIA tailing Indiana Jones, the subway chase, Indiana Jones crashing the Apollo Astronauts ticker tape parade, Helena’s Short Round-like sidekick…all of those could’ve been totally excised without the movie really being any worse for it. In fact, I think 90% of the New York scenes could’ve been cut altogether. Plus, stuff like Helena’s ex boyfriend chasing them in Algiers. It just unnecessarily pads the movie and drags the whole thing down.

 

I must give the movie some credit for indulging far less in fan service that I was expecting, although I disliked every single moment they went for it: Salah’s scenes, the totally pointless bug tunnel scene in Syracuse, Indy casually mentioning drinking the blood of Kali, Indy and Marion replaying their kissing scene on the boat from Raiders. All of those could’ve been cut without any harm done to the movie.

 

The musical quotes, although I understand their purpose and dramatic effectiveness, bother me to no end and I find them particularly deflating as I considered that on a conceptual level, JW absolutely knocked it out of the park in giving musical identity to the various characters, objects, factions and concepts in the movie. The new themes are all fantastic and really provide an enormous extra layer of character, weight and significance to the movie. The frantic and never ending editing process of the action sequences probably didn’t give him all the opportunities for greater musical coherence. I absolutely love the music for the Siege of Syracuse scenes.

 

I’m probably coming across much harsher on the movie than I intended, but it irks me that the movie had a really good premise (something I thought beforehand was really hard to achieve given the circumstances), only to squander all the potential of the story with a somewhat lackluster and uninspired execution. There’s something off about the tone, about the pace, about the blocking, about the humor. It doesn’t really feel like an Indiana Jones movie. 

 

It mostly looks like one. John Williams ensures it sounds like one, for the most part. But it’s a sort of doppelganger. On the whole, it is a superior movie than Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. But as I read on the Mixnmojo forums, KOTCS was awful, but at least it was an awful Indiana Jones movie, whereas this one, while being, on the whole, a better movie, it is an above average movie wearing an Indy mask.

[Datameister 2,044]

Well said, @Romão.  I especially agree with your central thesis that they came up with some story ideas that fit surprisingly well into the franchise … but the execution falls kinda flat.

 

There wasn't anything in the film that made me roll my eyes like nuking the fridge or "I thought we were friends" or Mutt's Tarzan moment. But I actually left KOTCS with a smile on my face. This time I left the theater feeling like the whole thing had been kind of a dour, anticlimactic non-event, set to previous Indy scores. It certainly didn't feel like the finale of the franchise.

[Andy 4,138]

While I really like this film and will grow to love it more over time, there’s no question Spielberg would’ve done this better, at least visually.  I watched Crystal Skull right after Dial of Destiny and the first thing that struck me was the vibrant color. The second was the visual language.  In the first moments you get Dovchenko tying his shoes to allow the other Russians to gun down the base guards.  Then you get the overhead shot of Jones on the ground and the Russians advancing in a circle around him. Then you get the hat put on in shadow.   The man knows clever ways to fill a frame in motion, simultaneously aesthetically provocative while efficient at storytelling.

[Datameister 2,044]

1 hour ago, Andy said:

While I really like this film and will grow to love it more over time, there’s no question Spielberg would’ve done this better, at least visually.  I watched Crystal Skull right after Dial of Destiny and the first thing that struck me was the vibrant color. The second was the visual language.  In the first moments you get Dovchenko tying his shoes to allow the other Russians to gun down the base guards.  Then you get the overhead shot of Jones on the ground and the Russians advancing in a circle around him. Then you get the hat put on in shadow.   The man knows clever ways to fill a frame in motion, simultaneously aesthetically provocative while efficient at storytelling.

 

Yep. Mangold's a capable director, but Spielberg's mastery of the frame is on a whole different level.

[Sweeping Strings 2,363]

11 hours ago, Jay said:

 

I think this question got lost in the page change 

Yeah, I noticed it too. Thought to myself 'Hmm, there's a little more than a hair-dye job going on there'.  

[Pieter Boelen 740]

On 02/07/2023 at 11:44 AM, paleo said:

I seem to recall a scene in a trailer in which Indy uses his whip to dislodge a giant boulder in Archimedes' tomb, but if this appeared in the actual movie, I must have missed it. Can anybody tell me if it is in there?

Deleted scenes. Cut for pacing.

Confirmed by Mangold that there used to be one additional room of puzzle-solving before reaching the Tomb.

[paleo 63]

1 hour ago, Pieter Boelen said:

Deleted scenes. Cut for pacing.

Confirmed by Mangold that there used to be one additional room of puzzle-solving before reaching the Tomb.

Thanks for the info. Great, the one thing I'd really have loved to see. There's hardly any puzzle-solving involved throughout the movie now. Couldn't he have cut Helena's ex-lover or five minutes of the tuk tuk chase instead? ;-)

Hm, would like to find out more about this. Can you perhaps provide a link to the news post (or whatever it was)?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Am i the only one thinking that giving helena a nickname “wombat” after an animal…could mean that there could be a film or series in the works about “The Adventures of Wombat Shaw”. And that is why they say she is not the next indiana jones, than only ford can be indiana jones… and she is just her own thing?

 

though the name is horrible.

 

thinking of it they may have thought the same about Mutt (dog name) 

 

“The Adventures of Mutt Jones/Williams…”?

[Faleel 5,353]

19 hours ago, Romão said:

 

 

 

 

 

one thing that really bothered me is that the last lesson Indiana Jones ever gave was about the Battle of Syracuse and Archimedes’ involvement in it. I mean, how convenient can you get? In all previous movies, the subject of his classes was always unrelated to the story’s main quest.

 

 

X, rarely marks the spot.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

How is the general resonance of this movie on this forum?

 

I think that movie was nothing. There is simply nothing positive I can say about it: the mess of story that was leading nowhere, Ford's lukewarm performance, the naive and unfunny script, the generic and chopped-up score, the embarassing references to the older films. It was as much fun as riding a dead horse.

 

At the end, Indy gets punched in the face for preferring to stay in the past, and then gets dragged back to the present ... well, that punch in the face might be a metaphor for this pathetic movie.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

3 hours ago, paleo said:

Thanks for the info. Great, the one thing I'd really have loved to see. There's hardly any puzzle-solving involved throughout the movie now. Couldn't he have cut Helena's ex-lover or five minutes of the tuk tuk chase instead? ;-)

Hm, would like to find out more about this. Can you perhaps provide a link to the news post (or whatever it was)?

There was a video interview someone posted on Facebook.

I didn't save a link.

[paleo 63]

Well, I'll look around. Thanks

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Ford's lukewarm performance. Thats german humor for you.  I enjoyed the film but then I love nostalgia. Ford's performance was the heart of the film. My biggest problem was Helena who I disliked until Indy answers here question which changed her. 

I was happy. Yes its not a SS film but it was better shot than a kaminski (I'm afraid of color) film. What John did at his age was amazing. I love that man. He is astounding.

[Sweeping Strings 2,363]

On the humour - thought 'You're German, don't try to be funny' was worth the price of admission by itself. 

[BB-8 3,478]

1 hour ago, Sweeping Strings said:

On the humour - thought 'You're German, don't try to be funny' was worth the price of admission by itself. 

 

Also had to laugh about: "That face rings a bell."

[JNHFan2000 2,966]

Hollywood reporter ranking all five films

 

5. Crystal Skull

4. Dial of Destiny

3. Temple Of Doom

2. Last Crusade

1. Raiders

 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/indiana-jones-movies-ranked-dial-of-destiny-1235528041/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

[JoeinAR 1,949]

38 minutes ago, JNHFan2000 said:

Hollywood reporter ranking all five films

 

5. Crystal Skull

4. Dial of Destiny

3. Temple Of Doom

2. Last Crusade

1. Raiders

 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/indiana-jones-movies-ranked-dial-of-destiny-1235528041/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

Switch Tod and LC.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Switch Raiders and the Last Crusade...

[JoeinAR 1,949]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Switch Raiders and the Last Crusade...

Blasphemy. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

I actually never really "clicked" with Raiders of the Lost Ark.

 

Temple of Doom I don't enjoy at all.

 

The less said about Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, the better.

 

But I love The Last Crusade.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,536]

I love this thread. It's saving me a veritable shedload of dosh!

Thanks, guys 

[oierem 152]

5 hours ago, JNHFan2000 said:

Hollywood reporter ranking all five films

 

5. Crystal Skull

4. Dial of Destiny

3. Temple Of Doom

2. Last Crusade

1. Raiders

 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/indiana-jones-movies-ranked-dial-of-destiny-1235528041/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

I don't agree with any of those lol

[JNHFan2000 2,966]

34 minutes ago, oierem said:

I don't agree with any of those lol

What would be yours

[Bellosh 3,419]

Raiders Temple and Crusade will always toggle as my favorite.

 

KOTCS and DoD will always toggle for 4th

[Tydirium 1,167]

In my case, ROTLA, TLC, and DOD compete for 1st, TOD is 4th, and KOTCS is 5th.

 

I guess I like the Nazi movies the best.

[oierem 152]

14 minutes ago, JNHFan2000 said:

What would be yours

5. Dial of Destiny

4. Crystal Skull

3. Last Crusade

2. Raiders

1. Temple of Doom

 

And I did like Dial of Destiny!

[Bellosh 3,419]

8 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

In my case, ROTLA, TLC, and DOD compete for 1st, and TOD and KOTCS compete for 4th.

 

One thing I love about KOTCS is that people do decide to put it in their top 3, even (usually) at the expense of ToD. It's good to see it has its fans!

 

I love KOTCS at the end of the day.  Its just a fun lighthearted adventure.

 

And the first half is arguably GREAT!

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

Wherein, just having seen the Dial of Destiny, which I'm told is an "Indiana Jones" film, I present the entirety of my review:

 

[Bellosh 3,419]

So far here I'm seeing the overall census of, if you're okay with an old Indy taking a backseat you let some of the bad stuff slide but if you aren't, you may be more critical.

 

I think both sides are ultimately right.  But also both sides knew this movie was never going to be great, unfortunately.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

5 hours ago, JoeinAR said:

Blasphemy. 

To Berlin/The Kroningrazter March

 

🙃

[crocodile 8,017]

I have to say I've enjoyed the film a lot more the second time. Once you know where it's going, the journey towards it makes bit more more sense, at least thematically. It's not a great climax but still better than Crystal Skull in a sense that there is some emotional weight to it as far as Indy is involved (not so much in terms of plot). Didn't feel as long as well, oddly. It's not a terrific movie but certainly doesn't deserve all the battering.

 

Karol

[King Mark 3,631]

I don't want to see it more than twice though

[Datameister 2,044]

I'm sure I'll watch it again on Disney+ at some point. But I wouldn't pay to see it again in theaters.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,536]

Funniest. Thread. Ever. 

[Sweeping Strings 2,363]

12 hours ago, Bellosh said:

So far here I'm seeing the overall census of, if you're okay with an old Indy taking a backseat you let some of the bad stuff slide but if you aren't, you may be more critical.

 

I think both sides are ultimately right.  But also both sides knew this movie was never going to be great, unfortunately.

The opening action with the de-aged Ford and Toby Jones on great form, the sight of Indy on a horse in the underground station/on the tracks, the mid-point tuk-tuk chase (easily up there with the series' best action sequences, for me) and the lovely ending all make it a worthwhile ride, IMO.   

Waller-Bridge is fine ... sure, not all of her schtick 'lands' or whatever but not to the extent that the movie's ruined. I mean, there were/are those that find Willie's constant bitching and screaming in TOD extremely annoying. 

And hell, the man still punches Nazis convincingly as far as I could see. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,536]

I've not seen DOD, yet, but colour me happy if every social trace of Waller-Bridge was completely eradicated.

[crocodile 8,017]

34 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

I've not seen DOD, yet, but colour me happy if every social trace of Waller-Bridge was completely eradicated.

Why? She's really good in this. Is this because she's being playing herself essentially? Not a fan? I loved Fleabag. She was annoying as hell at but first until I realised that was exactly the point. Ended up being quite brilliant series.

 

Karol

[Naïve Old Fart 9,536]

1 hour ago, crocodile said:

Not a fan?

 

Definitely not. She fucked up James Bond, and, from what I hear, she's fucked up Indiana Jones.

Fleabag is millennial, thirtysomething, hand-wringing angst. Not for me, I'm afraid.

[crocodile 8,017]

20 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

Definitely not. She fucked up James Bond, and, from what I hear, she's fucked up Indiana Jones.

Fleabag is millennial, thirtysomething, hand-wringing angst. Not for me, I'm afraid.

Ah I see. I am a millennial so it is sonewhat relatable.

 

And I really liked No Time to Die. It's bit of a mess but so much fun. Plus I don't think she wrote that much of it. If anything, it would be the Cuba sequence.

 

Karol

[crumbs 14,317]

1 hour ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Definitely not. She fucked up James Bond, and, from what I hear, she's fucked up Indiana Jones.

Fleabag is millennial, thirtysomething, hand-wringing angst. Not for me, I'm afraid.

 

There's a lot to unpack here.

 

One, you do realise she didn't write the script for Dial of Destiny, right?

 

Two, have you even watched Fleabag?

 

Three, what specifically did PWB contribute, that none of the other 6 writers on NTTD did, that "fucked up James Bond"?

[Datameister 2,044]

1 hour ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

Definitely not. She fucked up James Bond, and, from what I hear, she's fucked up Indiana Jones.

 

I don't know about Bond, but I definitely wouldn't describe her that way in Indy. She gives a solid performance as Helena. My problems with the film mostly have to do with the writing and tone—the overall storytelling, not the acting.

 

In fact, my biggest issue in terms of performance or casting is Mads Mikkelsen. I think he did a very nice job with the role, but I always have a hard time understanding him, unfortunately.