Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (Score in the film) - SPOILERS ALLOWED!

[Edmilson 7,466]

So, according to those who saw the movie and are familiar with the OST, the only track covering the 20-minute prologue (which has many lifts from previous Indy scores, but still) is Germany, 1944. Then, the first act in New York is not covered at all.

 

That means that maybe reels 1 and 2 are underrepresented in the OST album? Sigh... This reminds me of The Last Jedi OST, which omitted everything from reel 6, including the awesome Rey's Journey cue.

[crocodile 8,017]

Yes, that is right. I can't be sure what Voller Returns is exactly but otherwise, yeah, pretty much what you say. 

 

Karol

[Damien F 1,742]

When Helena meets Indy in New York, we hear her theme for the first time in the movie. I initially thought that was unreleased but it is actually the same music that begins the Polybius Cipher track on the album. So it is either tracked from that scene or vice versa.

[michael_grig 472]

 

 

[Damien F 1,742]

The unreleased New York parade cue is definitely one I hope appears on the FYC. It sounds really interesting but it is difficult to hear it properly in the film due to all the dietetic parade music and sound effects.

[DangerMotif 1,038]

Did anyone else pick up on the boulder motif from Raiders when they get knocked off the train?

[Pieter Boelen 740]

1 hour ago, DangerMotif said:

Did anyone else pick up on the boulder motif from Raiders when they get knocked off the train?

Not me...

I never knew the boulder HAD a motif.

[DangerMotif 1,038]

28 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said:

Not me...

I never knew the boulder HAD a motif.

[Brando 1,864]

The Temple of Doom music in the opening act when Indy is being hung in the castle was a lovely surprise. 

[King Mark 3,631]

Alright I just came back from seeing the film on opening night. 

 

All the people "who didn't notice major omissions from the OST" are inhaling the copium. The score has a truckload of unreleased music, entire action sequences that aren't on the OST, and some of the more mysterious underscore like the end of the Archimedes Tomb scene when they assemble the Dial, and several good renditions of Helena's Theme and the Raider's March. Most of the short action cues we got on the OST are parts of bigger set pieces with lots of unreleased music and that includes The Airport and Battle of Syracuse (there's a lot of unreleased music when they're flying the airplane into the time crack and afterwards).  And they released the worst part of Germany 1944 on the OST, there's fantastic music in that sequence that takes place on a train and that's all original. It's hard to fully appreciate this unreleased music because the mix isn't very good and a lot of it is drowned out by sound effects.

 

Yeah there's a few "lifts" from previous scores but only a few seconds here and there and the worst offender is the Last Crusade music we got on the OST.

 

This might be a worst case scenario if we don't get an expanded edition soon or isolated score. For most of the other Williams grails like the SW Prequels, Indy 4, TFA and Last Jedi, we have most of the unreleased music trough videogame files, bootlegs, recording sessions, isolated score...ect. Even TROS had a generous amount of unreleased music on the FYC. 

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

One thing I really like that might have already been mentioned is how Helena's theme is first introduced in the prologue opening as music for her dad and plays right after Indy rescues Shaw from his carriage.

 

Intent really does help clarify meaning. After being able to see that Battle of Syracuse was Williams scoring a mini-Roman epic, that Golden Age Hollywood pastiche really shines through. What a fun track. And, fuck me, the old age rendition of the Indy theme that closes Centuries Join Hands sounds awesome and ancient. It's like the Indy theme being treated like it also got taken to an earlier time and place.

[D_A_R_T_H 24]

Spoiler

03. Germany, 1944.flac
04. To Morocco.flac
05. Voller Returns.flac
06. Auction at Hotel L'Atlantique.flac
07. Tuk Tuk in Tangiers.flac
08. To Athens.flac
09. Perils of the Deep.flac
10. Water Ballet.flac
11. Polybius Cipher.flac
12. The Grafikos.flac
13. Archimedes' Tomb.flac
14. The Airport.flac
15. Battle of Syracuse.flac
16. Centuries Join Hands.flac
17. New York, 1969.flac

01. Prologue to Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny.flac (end credits part 2)

02. Helena's Theme.flac
18. Helena's Theme (For Violin and Orchestra).flac

Chronological order is something like this ? 

[Vince 34]

3 hours ago, King Mark said:

(there's a lot of unreleased music when they're flying the airplane into the time crack and afterwards). 

 

The music right before they enter the fissure sounded like it was tracked from KOTCS's The Spell of the Skull. It worked well up until the music cut out abruptly when the plane emerges on the other side. That was a tad jarring. 

[Arpy 4,145]

Escape from the City from War of the World's must've been a big temp track, it was so blatant. 

[Vince 34]

6 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Escape from the City from War of the World's must've been a big temp track, it was so blatant. 

 

I noticed that too. There were also some rumblings from The Intersection Scene in that portion of the film. 

[Damien F 1,742]

13 minutes ago, Vince said:

 

The music right before they enter the fissure sounded like it was tracked from KOTCS's The Spell of the Skull. It worked well up until the music cut out abruptly when the plane emerges on the other side. That was a tad jarring. 

 

Yes, that moment stood out to me also. I think Mangold was going for a dramatic effect by suddenly cutting the music but I don't think it worked very well.

 

Mangold has made some great movies but I didn't notice anything particularly special about the direction in DoD. It just felt very perfunctory. 

[Damien F 1,742]

6 hours ago, King Mark said:

Alright I just came back from seeing the film on opening night. 

 

All the people "who didn't notice major omissions from the OST" are inhaling the copium. The score has a truckload of unreleased music, entire action sequences that aren't on the OST, and some of the more mysterious underscore like the end of the Archimedes Tomb scene when they assemble the Dial, and several good renditions of Helena's Theme and the Raider's March. Most of the short action cues we got on the OST are parts of bigger set pieces with lots of unreleased music and that includes The Airport and Battle of Syracuse (there's a lot of unreleased music when they're flying the airplane into the time crack and afterwards).  And they released the worst part of Germany 1944 on the OST, there's fantastic music in that sequence that takes place on a train and that's all original. It's hard to fully appreciate this unreleased music because the mix isn't very good and a lot of it is drowned out by sound effects.

 

Yeah there's a few "lifts" from previous scores but only a few seconds here and there and the worst offender is the Last Crusade music we got on the OST.

 

This might be a worst case scenario if we don't get an expanded edition soon or isolated score. For most of the other Williams grails like the SW Prequels, Indy 4, TFA and Last Jedi, we have most of the unreleased music trough videogame files, bootlegs, recording sessions, isolated score...ect. Even TROS had a generous amount of unreleased music on the FYC. 

 

How would you compare this OST with the OSTs for TROS and KOTCS in terms of having a fair representation of the score and omitting holy grails?

[JohnnyD 1,223]

I saw the film last night, and will be seeing it again this weekend. Very well done. Also, Maestro John Williams’ score just goes to show you that the man has not lost his touch. I cannot wait until the film is released on 4K Blu-ray.

[crumbs 14,317]

5 hours ago, Arpy said:

Escape from the City from War of the World's must've been a big temp track, it was so blatant. 

 

Funny that The Intersection Scene would end up featuring in both Crystal Skull and Dial of Destiny.

 

There's at least 4 WOTW cues scattered around the temp track. Attack on the Car when Helena and Teddy are racing on motorbike to catch Voller in Sicily, and fragments of The Ferry Scene after the time fissure.

[crumbs 14,317]

10 hours ago, Brando said:

The Temple of Doom music in the opening act when Indy is being hung in the castle was a lovely surprise. 

 

Then a brief reprise of Map/Out Of Fuel when Indy and Helena jump out of the plane. Wonder if that was intentional.

[Tydirium 1,167]

Is any of the reprised music tracked from the earlier films? Or all they all fresh new recordings?

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

I think one thing about the standard that Williams has created is the expectation that his music isn't just film score that accompanys the film in an exceedingly satisfactory way but also is music that genuinely is enjoyable to listen to even when sperated from the film proper. Even if the OST doesn't click for others, I think there is genuine revelation had in getting to see it with the film because, regardless of how you feel about the OST, there are multiple sequences in the film that are so wonderfully scored that really help to elevate the film. The Airport really went up a couple appreciation levels, for example, after seeing it in the film. It's so enthralling when it plays out in the film and fits the film like a glove.

[mrbellamy 6,287]

I don't think it's associated with anything but I really love that crescendo at 1:07 of "Prologue" that reprises at 1:05 of "The Airport". Not sure if it's anywhere else, quietly one of the most effective things in the score to me, I'm kind of in love with it now. I remember digging it just listening to the OST but in the film it completely leapt out to me for some reason...maybe because it is THE beginning of the score in the movie and makes such a strong start, that I remembered it when it came back as the film started rolling into the climax. When the snares come in on The Airport 

 

Listening again I guess that whole segment of music in the prologue and airport could just be an extended intro of that recurring, rising suspense motif, which also gets catchier the more I hear it. I think that motif definitely pops up elsewhere on its own unless I'm wrong?

[crumbs 14,317]

55 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

Is any of the reprised music tracked from the earlier films? Or all they all fresh new recordings?

 

Short answer: we don't know, but some of it sounds verrrrrrry close. Some of the KOCS material might be tracked (the time fissure cue is ripped bleeding from Spell of the Skull).

[Andy 4,138]

Catching up on this thread is tough.  I noticed a lot of 1941 style "build-ups" that sounded just like this one before the Wild Bill theme kicks in.

 

 

[Brando 1,864]

3 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

Then a brief reprise of Map/Out Of Fuel when Indy and Helena jump out of the plane. Wonder if that was intentional.

Oh yes! @WampaRatmentioned this to me on Instagram, totally forgot about that one!

[lairdo 726]

9 hours ago, Damien F said:

 

Mangold has made some great movies but I didn't notice anything particularly special about the direction in DoD. It just felt very perfunctory. 

 

One moment I really enjoyed both as cinema and musically is the shared flashback that starts from Indy’s POV on the plane and comes back as Helena’s. It’s a great bit of visual storytelling, it’s scored marvelously and give us a lot of character stuff. Probably in the script but Mangold shot it well. I also felt the editing of the Airport through to the end was quite good (but in that I might just be loving the music for the entire sequence).

 

Overall, just came back from a my second viewing (1st was 2 weeks ago), this time with my wife. First off, she really liked the movie. She rates it way above Skull (which she rewatched this week at my suggestion to get the necessary info about Marion and Mutt) and maybe more than TLC and TOD. I could see that about TOD given that has some gruesome moments but not TLC. In any case, glad she liked it (and allowed me to drag her to a 9 am showing). 

 

Focusing on the music and after many listens of the OST this week, I am super pleased with the music in the movie. On my first viewing, I was grabbed by all the familiar motifs and themes and styles from other Indy movies and other JW movies as noted throughout this thread. But on the second viewing, I was able to hear more of the new stuff and how it weaves together. I was also surprised by how many more moments of now music there was than I remembered on the first watch. The music 100% enhances and pushes the movie forward in ways that are right for the series, and if you back to skull and see how Marion’s theme is so key after she is introduced in the movie, I think Helena’s theme followed suit. Of course, Helena is a much more action character, and her theme morphs to her actions. It’s just so well done.

 

I do miss the NYC stuff in not being on the OST. I loved the difference of it both for the sneaking music for Helena and the CIA agents and the horse ride through the parade. It works with the time period, the fractured nature of what is going on in the story and the ability to start and stop it for the diegetic music.

 

The end suite - I wish we had all the pieces. I know it’s basically the back half of NYC + Helena’s Theme + Prologue but I still felt something was else was in there. Could be wrong. I am ok with the way it ends sentimentally and softly. 

 

Overall, looking forward to seeing the movie again! (And getting all the music some day if I live that long or fine a dial of destiny to go forward in time and bring back the music after the copyright expires.)

[DangerMotif 1,038]

3 minutes ago, lairdo said:

The end suite - I wish we had all the pieces. I know it’s basically the back half of NYC + Helena’s Theme + Prologue but I still felt something was else was in there. Could be wrong. I am ok with the way it ends sentimentally and softly. 

There was some other villian stuff that isn’t on the prologue 

[lairdo 726]

16 minutes ago, DangerMotif said:

There was some other villian stuff that isn’t on the prologue 

 

Yes. And maybe some of the Syracuse music too?

[backfromthedead 21]

Saw it last night in the theaters and am listening to the soundtrack on youtube right now. Both are outstanding, much surpassing my expectations. 

 

Amazing they can make a high quality action adventure starring an 80 year old man. And much of that credit goes to the 91 year old composer!

 

Cheers to the whole crew: Harrison, Maestro, George, Steven, Mangold, Kennedy, Phoebe WB, Mads, and the others that brought this to life.  Thank you for this last adventure!!! Fantastic!

[artguy360 1,843]

3 hours ago, lairdo said:

The end suite - I wish we had all the pieces. I know it’s basically the back half of NYC + Helena’s Theme + Prologue but I still felt something was else was in there. Could be wrong. I am ok with the way it ends sentimentally and softly. 

 

I really dislike how the end credits music is split up on the OST. Even reordering them back into place, I find the suite lacking compared to TLC or recent JW end credit highlights like TFA. And we don't hear any interesting permutations of Indy's theme like we got in KOTCS.

[King Mark 3,631]

4 hours ago, DangerMotif said:

There was some other villian stuff that isn’t on the prologue 

yeah it seemed a lot longer than Prologue. At least we can get that clean eventually

[Jay 37,369]

Seeing the film in Atmos in a couple minutes! I hope the thematic ideas are clear to me after seeing it, seems like there's still some confusion about them 

[Tydirium 1,167]

Just got back from seeing the film. I thought the score was fantastic! Definitely sounded like new recordings of most if not all of the existing material from the earlier films, which makes me all the more bummed that so much of it didn’t make it onto the OST. I actually really enjoyed all the reused stuff, and “Belly of the Steel Beast” for example was so cool to hear in a movie theater (TLC came out a few years before I was born).

 

Based on some posts here and elsewhere, I was also bracing myself for not much Indy theme, but was pleasantly surprised; I thought his theme showed up in all the right places, and there were some really awesome renditions that, again, I wish had made it onto the album. Prior to seeing the film I had listened through the OST 4 times, so the stuff that wasn’t on it really stood out to me in the theater.

 

Still, it was incredible hearing a John Williams score in theaters in 2023. (I’m ashamed to say I didn’t make it to see Fabelmans in theaters last year, so this was my first time hearing his music in the theater since TROS.) And I know some have had a tough time with Helena’s theme, but over the past 9 months it has become one of my favorite JW themes in a very long time, and its use in the film was pretty much everything I had hoped for. Archimedes’ theme was also a highlight. All in all, I’m very happy! Hoping to go see it again with a friend soon.

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

On 29/06/2023 at 9:15 PM, crocodile said:

Yes, that is right. I can't be sure what Voller Returns is exactly but otherwise, yeah, pretty much what you say. 

 

Karol

Spoiler

Voller returns appears before the New York chase during the service talking

There's another appearence of WotW right after the use of The Spyders when the villains emerged on the roof

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I couldn't hear the score because the Imax was too loud.  And then they kicked me out in the end credits!

[King Mark 3,631]

yeah I saw it in IMAX and I think the center channel with the sound effects was too loud drowning the score.I'll see it in a different theater

 

Same thing happened with TROS

[Incanus 5,715]

The score was often buried under tons of sound effects in the film. There were for me only a couple of standout moments where the music is truly allowed to shine in all 2½ hours of the film. They sure don't make them like in the past anymore.

 

I was surprised at the amount of reprised Indiana Jones material almost verbatim from the previous scores as well as near quotes from War of the Worlds, Minority Report (during the New York chase) and Tintin. I don't think I have ever heard this level of self references (outside franchise spanning themes) from Williams before. I wonder why Williams decided to sprinkle seemingly unrelated Indy music quotes throughout, not themes but rather direct lifts from the underscore?

 

[BrotherSound 2,242]

1 minute ago, Incanus said:

I wonder why Williams decided to sprinkle seemingly unrelated Indy music quotes throughout, not themes but rather direct lifts from the underscore?

 

Many directors have an unfortunate tendency to fall in love with their temp score, and may have asked JW to imitate it as closely as possible, or even had it tracked (we're not sure yet what was tracked vs. re-recorded note-for-note).

[Falstaft 2,132]

1 hour ago, BrotherSound said:

 

Many directors have an unfortunate tendency to fall in love with their temp score, and may have asked JW to imitate it as closely as possible, or even had it tracked (we're not sure yet what was tracked vs. re-recorded note-for-note).

 

  

1 hour ago, Incanus said:

I was surprised at the amount of reprised Indiana Jones material almost verbatim from the previous scores as well as near quotes from War of the Worlds, Minority Report (during the New York chase) and Tintin. I don't think I have ever heard this level of self references (outside franchise spanning themes) from Williams before. I wonder why Williams decided to sprinkle seemingly unrelated Indy music quotes throughout, not themes but rather direct lifts from the underscore?

 

 

Temp-tracking certainly explains some passages, though I feel pretty comfortable that most everything has been newly recorded. Where there are longer spans of music built from successions of little bits and pieces of previous cues (notably most of the opening act), it's William Ross, tasked with cobbling together an "Indiana Jones action set-piece" that all was technically JW music, but in which JW never really had to be involved. Williams wasn't flipping through the pages of his old Indy scores (or TinTin, MR ,or WOTW for that matter) carefully considering "oh, I'd like to revisit that 10 measure fragment from The Boat Scene"... 

[Holko 9,529]

Yep probably same as those recorded Chamber of Secrets cues.

[Jilal 569]

On 30/06/2023 at 7:14 PM, Andy said:

Catching up on this thread is tough.  I noticed a lot of 1941 style "build-ups" that sounded just like this one before the Wild Bill theme kicks in.

 

 

 

Besides that bit, I think I heard a direct quote from 1941 somewhere, probably in the prologue

[Andy 4,138]

Yes, I think I heard some of the actual "Christopher Lee" motif from this very track of 1941 in the prologue today (2nd viewing). So interesting!

[Jilal 569]

38 minutes ago, Andy said:

Yes, I think I heard some of the actual "Christopher Lee" motif from this very track of 1941 in the prologue today (2nd viewing). So interesting!

 

You're right, I found 0:18-1:07 of Sub Commander/Wild BIll Kelso in my phone recording.

[JohnnyD 1,223]

20 hours ago, backfromthedead said:

Saw it last night in the theaters and am listening to the soundtrack on youtube right now. Both are outstanding, much surpassing my expectations. 

 

Amazing they can make a high quality action adventure starring an 80 year old man. And much of that credit goes to the 91 year old composer!

 

Cheers to the whole crew: Harrison, Maestro, George, Steven, Mangold, Kennedy, Phoebe WB, Mads, and the others that brought this to life.  Thank you for this last adventure!!! Fantastic!

 

I just got out of seeing it the third time. Nailed it right on the head. Shared sentiments all around. Heck, I’ll be seeing it a few more times (the wait for the 4K Blu-ray release will be quite a bit, possibly until mid-November or December); not only is it a great finale to the Indiana Jones Saga, but I intend to memorize as much of the Maestro’s score as possible. All of it was prominent and clearly heard in the sound mix. Some theaters don’t have the proper set-up for the sound mix, which is unfortunate. Fortunately, mine did.

[paleo 63]

Well, I was wondering how Williams scored the discovery of the Spear of Longinus, and it happens to be music for the false grail from Last Crusade. Quite appropriate, I think :-)

[willieround83 8]

I'm going to get taken out back and beaten for this, but I have to be honest with myself, unfortunately: this was not John Williams at his finest (or even his mediocre). I'm thankful for any new JW music as I worship the man, the talent and the impact he has had. But this soundtrack hits me hard with a combination of filler and reuse.

 

And, I have no problems with reusing old themes, especially major character themes like Indy's theme (obviously), Marion's theme etc... I don't even mind callbacks to major action cues like Belly of the Steel Beast. What I do have issues with is essentially nothing new thematically, or, at the very least, nothing new that is memorable.

 

Yes, Helena's theme is a major new theme, but I don't find it either memorable or particularly well utilized in the movie (it certainly doesn't compare, in my mind, to other JW heroine themes like Leia's theme, Marion's theme, Rey's theme etc). Indiana Jones films have foundational, common components: a cold open set piece, a McGuffin, a female co-adventurer, a creepy critter interlude, a cave/tomb raid, a travel map mechanic, an epic chase sequence, etc -- and it has always had some pretty significant new music to accompany those: a new march, an identifiable McGuffin theme, a re-occurring villain motif, a bombastic action cue, etc.

 

That stuff is just not there in this movie. It may be hinted at at times, but like the traditional title template's dissolve from the paramount logo into the film's matching opening shot, the Indiana Jones musical template has been left in the past. I miss it.

[paleo 63]

19 minutes ago, willieround83 said:

That stuff is just not there in this movie. It may be hinted at at times, but like the traditional title template's dissolve from the paramount logo into the film's matching opening shot, the Indiana Jones musical template has been left in the past. I miss it.

Ah, I don't think it's quite that dire. True, it's probably not comparable to what Williams did in the 80s-90s (KotCS wasn't either imo, by the way), but I still consider it satisfactory as an Indy score overall. Certainly better than 95 % of other current scores for similar movies.

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

Probably been mentioned, but I love this little brief variation of the Archimedes theme that plays right before they finally go back to ancient Rome:
 

 

[Damien F 1,742]

12 minutes ago, willieround83 said:

I'm going to get taken out back and beaten for this, but I have to be honest with myself, unfortunately: this was not John Williams at his finest (or even his mediocre). I'm thankful for any new JW music as I worship the man, the talent and the impact he has had. But this soundtrack hits me hard with a combination of filler and reuse.

 

What tracks do you consider filler?