New details on Williams / Ross Dial Of Destiny collaboration via new LA Times article by Tim Greiving

[Brando 1,864]

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/awards/story/2023-11-14/composer-john-williams-indiana-jones-dial-destiny

[Richard Penna 3,694]

So we nearly ended up with Ross composing the score, and he evidently did score at least some scenes.

 

So... how many JWFans will now not rest until Ross' entire rejected score comes out? 

 

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Still, there were practical concerns. Williams first thought he might not have the energy or time to compose two hours of the kind of elaborate, filigreed orchestral music that is his provenance. So he offered to write some character themes — much like he did for the “Star Wars” film “Solo” or the series “Obi-Wan Kenobi” — and let his longtime orchestrator, William Ross, extrapolate those melodies into an actual score.

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Initially, the climactic scene where Helena rides a motorcycle in the rain to follow a wounded Indy on an Italian airfield was scored by Ross using the Nazi motif.

 

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In the end, abetted by a prolonged postproduction schedule, Williams scored the entire picture himself

 

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

And we need those initial demos that the isolated score will not provide!

[King Mark 3,631]

Thanks to Ford's injury and script re-writes and re-shoots to make the movie less woke we got a full Williams score.

 

At least it's clearly stated that Williams wrote the entire score so we won't be debating which cues William Ross did for the next decade.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Quote

Initially, the climactic scene where Helena rides a motorcycle in the rain to follow a wounded Indy on an Italian airfield was scored by Ross using the Nazi motif.

We probably lost the only big bombast-militaristic rendition of the new nazi theme… or maybe ross used the last crusade theme too, which could be great too… 

[King Mark 3,631]

Who cares, The Airport is one of the best Williams action cues in years

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

7 minutes ago, King Mark said:

Who cares, The Airport is one of the best Williams action cues in years

Omg, i dont know you, you have changed..

[Richard Penna 3,694]

38 minutes ago, King Mark said:

At least it's clearly stated that Williams wrote the entire score so we won't be debating which cues William Ross did for the next decade.

 

Williams recorded an entire score, but who's to say Mangold and the editors didn't use any of Ross' material?

 

Of course I'm being devil's advocate. It's too much fun watching you guys panic over whether you're hearing Williams or not.

[Edmilson 7,466]

43 minutes ago, King Mark said:

At least it's clearly stated that Williams wrote the entire score so we won't be debating which cues William Ross did for the next decade.

 

3 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

It's too much fun watching you guys panic over whether you're hearing Williams or not.

The curious case of the JWFan who hated the other JWFans.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

1 hour ago, King Mark said:

At least it's clearly stated that Williams wrote the entire score so we won't be debating which cues William Ross did for the next decade.

 

That was just a generalization, we already know he made contributions to the final score.

 

[Tom 4,661]

16 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

That was just a generalization, we already know he made contributions to the final score.

 

There is no need for anyone to freak out.  Ross only wrote the good parts.  

[Edmilson 7,466]

Isn't Pulse of the City Ross's single piece of music in the movie?

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

30 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Isn't Pulse of the City Ross's single piece of music in the movie?

 

Single credited piece. Then again he did a lot of uncredited work on the SW sequel trilogy so I wouldn't be surprised if he did a lot more then they're willing to let on for DoD. Not that it matters, at the end of the day it's all great music.

 

Spoiler

For example, I theorize that Ross might've done the second (unreleased) part of the Tuk Tuk chase for 3 reasons:

- It's unreleased (yeah, not a big sign, I know)

- It primarily copies "The Conveyor Belf" from AOTC, and I'm not sure JW would've gone through old sheets from another film himself

- Ross' piano motif from "Pulse of the City" makes another appearance near the end (and appears in one or two other cues)

 

[Edmilson 7,466]

9 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

It primarily copies "The Conveyor Belf" from AOTC, and I'm not sure JW would've gone through old sheets from another film himself

Wouldn't be the first time that JW copies himself though.

[Faleel 5,353]

39 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

  Hide contents

- It primarily copies "The Conveyor Belf" from AOTC, and I'm not sure JW would've gone through old sheets from another film himself

 

 

The Conveyor Balfe?

[Richard Penna 3,694]

34 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Single credited piece. Then again he did a lot of uncredited work on the SW sequel trilogy so I wouldn't be surprised if he did a lot more then they're willing to let on for DoD. Not that it matters, at the end of the day it's all great music.

 

Sounds rather probable that Ross did more than just that original ending cue - just logically given that he'd gotten as far as recording said cue and the original plan was for him to write the score.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

I wouldn't be surprised if he in fact did everything.

[Arpy 4,145]

I agree with Mangold that Helena's theme isn't the right fit for her character - she's more of asshole than a heroine - but the theme is so gorgeous and Williams' ability to adapt it and use it in different modes is what makes it work. 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

3 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Wouldn't be the first time that JW copies himself though.

 

True, but generally he copies material from other recent works, whereas AOTC came out 20 years before he started scoring DoD, and I'm not sure he'd even recall this somewhat obscure (mostly unused) cue.

 

I just can't really imagine a 90-year-old JW sifting through old sheet music he'd written decades ago to look for inspiration.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

1 hour ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

Single credited piece. Then again he did a lot of uncredited work on the SW sequel trilogy so I wouldn't be surprised if he did a lot more then they're willing to let on for DoD. Not that it matters, at the end of the day it's all great music.

 

  Hide contents

For example, I theorize that Ross might've done the second (unreleased) part of the Tuk Tuk chase for 3 reasons:

- It's unreleased (yeah, not a big sign, I know)

- It primarily copies "The Conveyor Belf" from AOTC, and I'm not sure JW would've gone through old sheets from another film himself

- Ross' piano motif from "Pulse of the City" makes another appearance near the end (and appears in one or two other cues)

 

 

Wasn't there some music on the train that was copied from Rogue One of all things?

[Faleel 5,353]

28 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

True, but generally he copies material from other recent works, whereas AOTC came out 20 years before he started scoring DoD, and I'm not sure he'd even recall this somewhat obscure (mostly unused) cue.

 

I can't really imagine him sifting through old sheet music he'd written decades ago to look for inspiration.

You mean, like "Through the Window", "Flight from Peru", "Rats!"?

 

Or ESB in COS?

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

1 hour ago, Presto said:

You mean, like "Through the Window", "Flight from Peru", "Rats!"?

 

Or ESB in COS?

 

Well clearly Bill Ross did all those then! 

 

[Brando 1,864]

13 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

I just can't really imagine a 90-year-old JW sifting through old sheet music he'd written decades ago to look for inspiration.

Of course not! He simply Facebook messaged Mike Mattessino and asked him politely if he could send him the recording sessions for all the Star Wars and Indiana jones scores so he could give them all a listen before writing. He had to do this since he lost the files for TLC’s toilet bowl leak.

[JTN 2,030]

New interview with John Williams (and James Mangold) by Tim Greiving in the Los Angeles Times

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/awards/story/2023-11-14/composer-john-williams-indiana-jones-dial-destiny

 

@Jaycould you please create a new thread for this article? Thanks!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

lastest posts are because we are talking about that interview…

[JTN 2,030]

Fair enough, but I didn’t see any thread or news about it, and I thought it hadn’t been discussed yet. 

[LB Makes Stuff 240]

11 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Wasn't there some music on the train that was copied from Rogue One of all things?

Yeah

[JTN 2,030]

At this point William Ross could be so familiar with JW’s style that he “could” easily copy it and nobody would notice. I mean the guy has been orchestrating JW for decades, he must know his music backwards. It would sadden me to find out that in fact WR wrote some of JW’s scores, but it’s a fact that the Maestro is very old and doesn’t have the energy to write so much music for a film anymore. Still I’m convinced that he wrote the majority of DoD.  

[JTN 2,030]

@Jay You misspelled Tim Greiving’s name. 

[Jilal 569]

10 hours ago, JTW said:

I mean the guy has been orchestrating JW for decades

 

He has?

[Faleel 5,353]

16 minutes ago, Jilal said:

 

He has?

...Conrad Pope asked, indignantly

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

All I need to know is that Williams composed Helena's Theme. The rest is superfluous to me.

[Tom 4,661]

On 15/11/2023 at 5:23 PM, Mr. Hooper said:

All I need to know is that Williams composed Helena's Theme. The rest is superfluous to me.

He did, but it turns out that Herbert Spencer wrote the theme for Indy.  Are you happy now?   

 

Edit:  Not all jokes land.  Or as Norm would put it, "its not all gravy."  

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

4 hours ago, Jilal said:

He has?

 

Well, technically since CoS came out in 2003.

 

Anyone know if they worked together prior?

[crumbs 14,317]

On 15/11/2023 at 6:28 AM, Luke Skywalker said:

And we need those initial demos that the isolated score will not provide!

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the entirety of track 1 is demo material.

 

The first minute as a proof of concept for Helena's Theme (recorded before the full concert suite was written), the rest a demo suite for the Nazi and Archimedes themes, later repurposed for the end credits (which is why there's no traditional end credits suite that integrates both Helena's theme and the Raiders March).

[BB-8 3,478]

"...scored by Ross using the Nazi motif..."

 

That sounds evil.

[Jilal 569]

6 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Well, technically since CoS came out in 2003.

 

Anyone know if they worked together prior?

 

On his official website, his credit for COS reads "score adaptation, conductor", so I don't think he worked as an orchestrator on COS.

[JTN 2,030]

11 hours ago, Jilal said:

 

He has?

Considering Ross worked on STEPMOM in 1998 and on HARRY POTTER AND THE CHAMBER OF SECRETS in 2002 which was 25 and 21 years ago, respectively, I believe he has, yes. 

7 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Anyone know if they worked together prior?

According to Ross' IMDb page he worked on STEPMOM as "executive charge of music". 

42 minutes ago, Jilal said:

On his official website, his credit for COS reads "score adaptation, conductor", so I don't think he worked as an orchestrator on COS.

Well then who orchestrated the score? 

 

Answer: Conrad Pope.

[Alex 2,835]

I think Ross definitely was involved in the unreleased Tuk Tuk Music. As I’ve said in other threads, it really is a weird mix of original sounding JW underscore, direct quotes of old IJ scores, and other music that sounds similar to previous JW compositions. Maybe JW wrote “Tuk Tuk in Tangiers” and thought “F*** it, you finish this”. Would love to hear a clean version.
 

 

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Something felt odd about this project as soon as Mangold said that Williams ended up writing the score, but wasn't sure if he could originally. Hence I think this answers that oddity.

 

This wouldn't be at all unusual for most composers who we know have assistants or entire teams, but a tentpole project which has to plan for Williams to not write the whole score? Either Williams is going to delegate to someone trusted like Ross or they have to contract another composer. It was inevitable that someone else would be compositionally involved if they didn't have a 100% commitment contract.

 

I don't think there's anything negative to take away - no inherent 'confirmation' that any score in the film is Ross. Just an acknowledgement that Williams is in his 90s and only by circumstance was able to complete a huge orchestral score.

 

(Actually, you could argue that if anything other than Pulse had remained, Ross would have credit at the end, but that's assuming the people writing music credits for the end roll kept up with the editing. Doesn't matter that it's an Indy movie with John Williams.... people make mistakes)

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

9 hours ago, Alex said:

Would love to hear a clean version.

 

[Edmilson 7,466]

If I could go back in time, I'd like to be at Abbey Road studios in late 2002 watching Ross conduct Chamber of Secrets. Every time they'd start recording a new cue, I would approach Ross and ask: "so, who wrote this? You or JW? Come on, tell the truth, don't be shy".

[JTN 2,030]

“He says he would want to ask Beethoven how much of his style came from the counterpoint teacher, Johann Georg Albrechtsberger.

But then, sounding a lot like Indiana Jones, Williams admits: He already knows the answer.”

Interesting thought. Should we perhaps ask the same question about Williams and his counterpoint teacher?

And what is the answer he already knows? How much of Beethoven’s style came from his counterpoint teacher in Williams’s opinion? 

[Thor 7,508]

3 hours ago, JTW said:

“He says he would want to ask Beethoven how much of his style came from the counterpoint teacher, Johann Georg Albrechtsberger.

But then, sounding a lot like Indiana Jones, Williams admits: He already knows the answer.”

Interesting thought. Should we perhaps ask the same question about Williams and his counterpoint teacher?

And what is the answer he already knows? How much of Beethoven’s style came from his counterpoint teacher in Williams’s opinion? 

 

Well, we all know Williams' style is pretty much a mix of Robert van Epps and Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco.

[crocodile 8,017]

On 14/11/2023 at 8:09 PM, King Mark said:

Who cares, The Airport is one of the best Williams action cues in years

Amen. 

 

Karol 

[BB-8 3,478]

“He says he would want to ask Beethoven how much of his style came from the counterpoint teacher, Johann Georg Albrechtsberger.

But then, sounding a lot like Steven Spielberg, Williams admits: They are all dead.”

[crumbs 14,317]

On 15/11/2023 at 7:09 AM, King Mark said:

Who cares, The Airport is one of the best Williams action cues in years

 

It's definitely the cue that randomly pops into my head most often, even without listening to the score for nearly 3 months.

[BB-8 3,478]

 

[TolkienSS 407]

There is no way - none - that the large chunks of rerecorded music were written as such by Williams. There are obvious contributions by William Ross.

It's glaringly obvious.

[Arpy 4,145]

23 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

It's definitely the cue that randomly pops into my head most often, even without listening to the score for nearly 3 months.

What about Tuk Tuk in Tangiers? That's an awesome action cue, and just like TROS's The Speeder Chase, it's obscured by heavy sound fx and cut to pieces!