New details on Williams / Ross Dial Of Destiny collaboration via new LA Times article by Tim Greiving

[GerateWohl 4,373]

9 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

There is no way - none - that the large chunks of rerecorded music were written as such by Williams. There are obvious contributions by William Ross.

It's glaringly obvious.

How exactly do you distinguish contributions by William Ross from what Williams has written? Your knowledge on this could end a lot of discussions. 

[JTN 2,047]

3 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

How exactly do you distinguish contributions by William Ross from what Williams has written?

That’s what I was talking about. It’s probable you just can’t anymore. 

[GerateWohl 4,373]

1 minute ago, JTW said:

That’s what I was talking about. It’s probable you just can’t anymore. 

That is why I am asking where people take their confidence from, that Ross was involved in this or that cue.

[Andy 4,142]

People are acting like Tuk Tuk is the first time quotes from older action scenes popped up like in KOTCS.  And like it’s the first time only half of an action sequence was released.  I’m not saying it’s wrong to speculate that Ross did Tuk Tuk pt 2, but… On the Tank… Jungle Chase?

[Edmilson 7,473]

I love how some JW fans think: "if it is quoting an older score, then it was probably done by William Ross". 

 

Almost every composer in Hollywood likes to borrow from him/herself sometimes (or a lot of times if we're talking about James Horner), and that includes Williams. 

 

It's not like he went: "Hmm, not sure how I would score this scene... I'll take a look on my sheets from Jurassic Park or Attack of the Clones or whatever, maybe it'll give me some ideas!". I'm not even sure if it is a conscious thing. Perhaps it's just the way his brain works. Some motifs are probably so ingrained into his mindset that he just re-uses them. 

[Tom 4,673]

16 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I love how some JW fans think: "if it is quoting an older score, then it was probably done by William Ross". 

 

Almost every composer in Hollywood likes to borrow from him/herself sometimes (or a lot of times if we're talking about James Horner), and that includes Williams. 

 

It's not like he went: "Hmm, not sure how I would score this scene... I'll take a look on my sheets from Jurassic Park or Attack of the Clones or whatever, maybe it'll give me some ideas!". I'm not even sure if it is a conscious thing. Perhaps it's just the way his brain works. Some motifs are probably so ingrained into his mindset that he just re-uses them. 

These are direct lifts.  I really cannot see Williams's remembering them with that level of detail or going back and studying the earlier scores (though maybe, but various comments over the years by him indicate otherwise).  So, it seems to be likely that either they were part of the temp-track and Williams just decided to use them or Ross did it.  

[oierem 152]

18 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I love how some JW fans think: "if it is quoting an older score, then it was probably done by William Ross". 

 

Almost every composer in Hollywood likes to borrow from him/herself sometimes (or a lot of times if we're talking about James Horner), and that includes Williams. 

 

It's not like he went: "Hmm, not sure how I would score this scene... I'll take a look on my sheets from Jurassic Park or Attack of the Clones or whatever, maybe it'll give me some ideas!". I'm not even sure if it is a conscious thing. Perhaps it's just the way his brain works. Some motifs are probably so ingrained into his mindset that he just re-uses them. 

 

That's one thing. But many of the cues of DoD are not just that. They literally copy/paste bars from previous scores, lifting and juxtaposing cues that have nothing in common, in a rather unnatural way, I might add. It's more than concious: it's the equivalent of parts of Chamber of Secrets being copy/pasted from the previous score. 

[JTN 2,047]

59 minutes ago, oierem said:

But many of the cues of DoD are not just that. They literally copy/paste bars from previous scores, lifting and juxtaposing cues that have nothing in common

Maybe Mangold asked that. Or JW did it on purpose because he was, being 91  - sacrilige! - out of ideas, sort of uninspired by the scenes? Or was a little lazy? 

 

And I agree with @Edmilsonon that film composers do use the same themes and musical phrases from time to time. James Horner, hello? Thomas Newman, hello? 

The sheer amount of music these composers have written during their decades-long career is mindblowing. It's almost impossible NOT to copy yourself if you're a composer for that long. And John Williams is no exception to the rule, either. He is the greatest, but he has his own repetitive style. Heck, his action writing has been almost the same since MINORITY REPORT. And it's not William Ross copying JW. It's JW copying JW. 

[King Mark 3,631]

it's not like he didn't do it before .Return of the Jedi, Home Alone 2, Revenge of the Sith, KotCS lifts passages from previous scores.

[mrbellamy 6,293]

Obviously I'd be very interested to know as much as possible about how this score came together but I don't know why Ross wouldn't simply have the ol "Adapted by" credit if he did as much as we're suggesting he did, constructing cues or partial cues himself from old JW scores. 

[King Mark 3,631]

Because JW did the final cues , just like Chamber of Secrets. I think in both cases there must have been temporary/initial scoring  by Ross where he lifted passages previous scores and Williams just left it in to save time.

 

You can hear William Ross own music adapted from JW themes in ObiWan TV series , and although it sounds good you can easily tell it's not JW if you've been listening to JW for decades. Or just listen to the ObiWan theme recorded by Williams vs series End Credits version.

 

And it's like Solo, where it's easy to tell the music Powell adapted.  And I still believe Williams wrote some cues where he's not credited  ( the last 45 seconds of Dice and Roll).

 

There's certain automatisms and chord progressions in Williams writing that can't be duplicated by someone else.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

6 hours ago, Andy said:

I’m not saying it’s wrong to speculate that Ross did Tuk Tuk pt 2, but… On the Tank… Jungle Chase?

 

3 hours ago, King Mark said:

Return of the Jedi, Home Alone 2, Revenge of the Sith, KotCS lifts passages from previous scores.

 

[Andy 4,142]

Hahahah!  That’s brilliant!!

[TolkienSS 407]

On 18/11/2023 at 10:38 AM, GerateWohl said:

How exactly do you distinguish contributions by William Ross from what Williams has written? Your knowledge on this could end a lot of discussions. 

 

Serious?

Ross' job from the very start was adapting. Cues simply adapted from other films are by Ross, original cues are by Williams. It's not difficult.

 

The other option is Williams' decision to "do it all himself" resulted in him copy-pasting because of his age.

I prefer option 1.

 

And it's for the better to see it this way, I don't want to think Williams regurgitated his previous scores to that extent himself, that would lessen my opinion on an already dissapointing score.

 

And based on the score and this interview, there is definitely an element of ego and pride in there that didn't let Williams pass on the project, despite him knowing it probably won't have an ideal result.

 

The only funny thing here is fans refusing to believe Williams would ask for help scoring nearly 3 hours at 90-something.

[Schilkeman 964]

27 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

And it's for the better to see it this way

The best way to see it is how it actually happened. Williams has direct quoted himself before, as stated elsewhere. Without commentary from either party, or extremely academic textural analysis, we will probably never know for sure.
 

Williams has always been willing to share credit, where applicable. I’m inclined to believe, until evidence shows otherwise, that if someone says he did it all, he did it all. 

[GerateWohl 4,373]

58 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

Serious?

Ross' job from the very start was adapting. Cues simply adapted from other films are by Ross, original cues are by Williams. It's not difficult.

 

The other option is Williams' decision to "do it all himself" resulted in him copy-pasting because of his age.

I prefer option 1.

 

And it's for the better to see it this way, I don't want to think Williams regurgitated his previous scores to that extent himself, that would lessen my opinion on an already dissapointing score.

 

And based on the score and this interview, there is definitely an element of ego and pride in there that didn't let Williams pass on the project, despite him knowing it probably won't have an ideal result.

 

The only funny thing here is fans refusing to believe Williams would ask for help scoring nearly 3 hours at 90-something.

I also believe, that might have something to do with temp tracking. And things like the quote of The Imperial March from The Duel of TESB in ROTS sound to me rather like a concious but not very welcome decision to quote this passage. Or all these quote in TROS don't appear to me like Bill Ross' adaptations but requests from the director.

I personally would never claim that I see through all this and know who made which decision and who adapted what.

[mrbellamy 6,293]

Totally agree that boiling it down to "Williams purposefully selected all these old cues on his own" or "William Ross was delegated to select these old cues on his own" ignores the music supervisor's choices on the temp and requests from Mangold or Disney based on that.

 

That's why it'd be interesting to know the thinking behind these which we'll probably never know, but it doesn't really seem like Williams was out of the loop or just left Ross to take care of scenes or random moments. Because he didn't want to? Ran out of time?

 

I'm more inclined to guess Mangold and the music supervisor temped stuff in and Mangold had an opinion or pet favorites, especially in the opening where the attempt was to hearken back to the original trilogy. And Williams either doesn't care to have these arguments or he's less inclined to think outside the box when asked for "same but different" on, say, the Minority Report or Tintin similarities. Besides previous instances of actual copy-paste, it's also certainly not the first time a temp would have affected his scores, but the difference lately is it seems to be entirely his own music, at least if the Indy 5 temp went the same route as Last Jedi. The "Helena's Theme" anecdote shows he'll go his own way if it matters to him. 

 

But it seems entirely speculative how much creative input Ross himself had in terms of adaptation scoring. Could be a lot, a little, none.

[JTN 2,047]

There's a lot of truth to what @TolkienSSsays and it's our ego and love for JW that won't allow us to give it any credit. I, just as much as anyone else, want to believe that Williams wrote every note of DoD. But I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that it wasn't the case. I guess only those involved with the creation of the score and close to Williams know the truth. Maybe it's better not to know and believe it's just him. Williams is not Zimmer after all. But for many, knowing the truth is better than believing a lie. As for myself, until a new evidence emerges that some of the cues were written by Ross, I'm believing it's all Williams. Maybe I'm naïve, but I don't want to accuse my favorite film composer of anything until proven guilty.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

20 minutes ago, JTW said:

There's a lot of truth to what @TolkienSSsays and it's our ego and love for JW that won't allow us to give it any credit. I, just as much as anyone else, want to believe that Williams wrote every note of DoD.

 

Of course, that's what most discussion here is built on. You want to believe Williams wrote everything, and that there's some intelligent creative reason for all the direct lifts from older scores. You have to be willing to admit to yourself that Williams is in his 90s, needs some help and yes, potentially gets a bit lazy if the schedule or something else is pushing.

 

I've had similar thoughts with other huge scores where a section doesn't quite seem to have the freshness that other parts have, and I wonder whether the realities of composing many minutes of music per day just got a bit too much on that particular day. I can think of a few sequences from RotK that fits that perfectly.

[TolkienSS 407]

Dial of Destiny was John Williams' biggest mistake in an almost impeccable career.

May it be his duty, ego, or pride, he put a blemish on a near ideal end of his film career.

 

History is chock full of great men and artists who held on for too long. Williams shouldnt be one of them.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

That’s a truly absurd thing to say. It’s not among his very best, and there are certainly creative compromises, but I’m so glad he wrote what he did. This is not a blemish by any means. Stop being so dramatic.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

1 hour ago, TolkienSS said:

Dial of Destiny was John Williams' biggest mistake in an almost impeccable career.

May it be his duty, ego, or pride, he put a blemish on a near ideal end of his film career.

 

History is chock full of great men and artists who held on for too long. Williams shouldnt be one of them.

 

[scoreman36 68]

2 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

Dial of Destiny was John Williams' biggest mistake in an almost impeccable career.

May it be his duty, ego, or pride, he put a blemish on a near ideal end of his film career.

 

History is chock full of great men and artists who held on for too long. Williams shouldnt be one of them.

Wow! 

[Damien F 1,742]

It is ok to critique or dislike Dial of Destiny but to call it his biggest mistake and a blemish is ridiculous exaggeration.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

4 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

The "Helena's Theme" anecdote shows he'll go his own way if it matters to him

 

Helena's Theme is clearly the sort of music Williams wants to be composing nowadays - concert material essentially. Chaotic Indy Action Sequence #15 may not be high on the list of things he finds interesting to do nowadays, and my personal view is that it shows. If Mangold selected the lifts from the other films, it may be a combination of Williams not wanting to have that fight, and maybe just being happy that there goes another couple of minutes of complicated score he doesn't have to write.

 

Or put it this way: Williams at 90 something has the same work ethic as other composers half his age - do your best, and when the schedule, workload and related factors makes things a bit tricky (in their case, due to the amount of work they take on, and in JW's case... age), turn to trusted colleagues to help finish it.

[mrbellamy 6,293]

"Helena's Theme" alone will make Indy 5 look like a pretty elegant career capper for the great John Williams should it turn out that way. Nobody's gonna care about any of this other shit. 

[Fabulin 3,515]

Speaking of the tenth decade... Williams namedropping Lauren Bacall of the 1940s fame is as if someone of my gen were to mention Emma Watson in 2089. We will all be soylent green by that point 

[Schilkeman 964]

10 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

Dial of Destiny was John Williams' biggest mistake in an almost impeccable career.

May it be his duty, ego, or pride, he put a blemish on a near ideal end of his film career.

 

History is chock full of great men and artists who held on for too long. Williams shouldnt be one of them.

Helena's Theme is one of the most laconic and elegant themes he's ever written, and it's woven into, and developed, in the most learned of ways throughout the score. I might suggest that your knowledge has fallen short of your artistic criticism, but that might be giving you too much credit for one of the most bafflingly wild takes I've read on here, and I spend time in the Star Wars threads.

 

There's a fair amount of primacy bias on these boards, but let's not be ridiculous. It's not the greatest score he's ever written, but it's hardly a blemish.

[GerateWohl 4,373]

Helena's Theme is Williams' best since Rey's Theme. And the whole score is really a great piece of Motion Picture score art.

I was sitting in that really mediocre movie and was almost driven to tears listening to that stellar action music knowing that this is the end of a glorious aera in that regard.

[JTN 2,047]

While I myself don’t agree with @TolkienSSthis time about DoD being the biggest mistake of John Williams’ career, I would like to ask everyone to stop being personal towards TolkienSS. He, just like anyone else, has the right to his opinion, and just because you disagree with him, it doesn’t give you the right to offend him. It’s immature and rude. Let’s talk about what he was talking about, not about him. Thank you very much.

[Edmilson 7,473]

14 hours ago, Fabulin said:

in 2089

AKA the year when the Matessino-produced The John Williams Indiana Jones Collection on La La Land Records will be released. 

[TolkienSS 407]

1 hour ago, JTW said:

While I myself don’t agree with @TolkienSSthis time about DoD being the biggest mistake of John Williams’ career, I would like to ask everyone to stop being personal towards TolkienSS. He, just like anyone else, has the right to his opinion, and just because you disagree with him, it doesn’t give you the right to offend him. It’s immature and rude. Let’s talk about what he was talking about, not about him. Thank you very much.

 

It's ok, I don't read any of it. Just read OP and posted my opinion.

 

Williams had a graceful full circle final bow with the Spielberg movie.

 

But he felt obligated to take on Indiana Jones because of his legacy. And while the delays ended up making DoD his last film score, the terrible production issues took a big toll on the score, and it ended up as Williams' unfortunate swan song.

 

Franchises Williams has scored will go on without him, and I think he has to come to terms with that; and maybe accept that the music for them after him will be a much greater comment on his work than had he himself scored them.

[Bellosh 3,419]

you don't think the cues: The Prologue, Helena's Theme, Voller's Theme, To Morocco, To Athens, The Airport, Battle of Syracuse, Centuries Join Hands outweigh the negatives?

 

Even the bit before the raiders march in New York 1969 is lovely.

 

I'm not a fan of the re-hashed cues myself.  But the original material in this score is wonderful.

[JTN 2,047]

53 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

And while the delays ended up making DoD his last film score

You don't know that for sure. Spielberg could make another film and Williams, if he's still fit, can write the score to it.

 

53 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

the terrible production issues took a big toll on the score, and it ended up as Williams' unfortunate swan song.

Possibly, but a lot of people on this forum disagree with that. I personally don't think that DoD is his unfortunate swan song. It's not Williams' fault that the film turned out the way it did. Yes, his ego or vanity made him do the score, but I'd rather take a so-so JW Indiana Jones score than a Giacchino, Zimmer or Balfe IJ score. Williams at 91, tired and somewhat uninspired is 100 times better than Giacchino, Zimmer and Balfe on their best day combined. 

 

53 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

Franchises Williams has scored will go on without him

They have gone on for decades (Jaws, Superman, Harry Potter, Jurassic Park) and he came to terms with it a long time ago. 

 

I hope that he can write another score, because to me he is the greatest film composer of all time, and anything he writes is a gift, even if it's not as good as the scores he wrote in his prime. 

[TolkienSS 407]

1 hour ago, JTW said:

Possibly, but a lot of people on this forum disagree with that. I personally don't think that DoD is his unfortunate swan song. It's not Williams' fault that the film turned out the way it did. . 

 

No, it's not his fault that it turned out the way it did, but it did turn out the way it did.

 

The state of Lucasfilm was known, and Williams could have known.

And well, he probably did know because scoring DoD was NOT his first choice.

 

We're talking about John Williams' career end in film scoring. It may be, it may not be.

But Williams deserves an end to his career where he's only compared to himself.

Do you really want to say about John Williams' last score(s) "at least it's better than Lorne Balfe"? Or wouldn't you rather go "that's a great end to the story of his career"?

I'd rather have John Williams' final contributions to film scoring be about his story than about a misguided obligation to franchise IPs.

 

Come on, we could talk about John Williams' swan song being a light and soulful score to a Steven Spielberg biopic. Instead, we're here talking about whether Dial Of Destiny is even all Williams.

 

[Thor 7,521]

Difficult to control these things, you know. Sometimes, you're lucky and end with a TAXI DRIVER. Other times, you're unlucky and end up with a LOONEY TUNES: BACK IN ACTION.

 

DIAL OF DESTINY is a fairly OK ender, if it is indeed the ender.

[Tom 4,673]

This is all very odd.  The score to DOD is, at worst, serviceable.  I think it is very good (3.5 out of 4).  Yes, the movie vastly underperformed, but so did The Fabelmans.  In both cases, no one is saying the movies did poorly because of their scores.  Moreover, outside of this forum (and not much even here) is anyone saying Williams's legacy is somehow tarnished? 

[Damien F 1,742]

I am delighted the Dial of Destiny score exists. Is it one of the best scores of JW's career? No. Is it one of the best scores of 2023? Absolutely!

I don't put a huge amount of importance on the sentiment of his final score. It would have been The Fabelmans if SS started working on it a little later.

JW's career is filled with smaller dramas and epic blockbusters, so I actually consider it appropriate that his potential final two scores are from each genre.

[Bellosh 3,419]

we got an 'overture' for an Indiana Jones film.

 

I'm ecstatic the score exists even though the movie is below average

[Tom 4,673]

2 hours ago, Bellosh said:

we got an 'overture' for an Indiana Jones film.

 

I'm ecstatic the score exists even though the movie is below average

 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

On 18/11/2023 at 3:42 PM, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

Unrelated, but that guy in the bottom left is either an uncredited Frank Marshall, or some guy that looks exactly like Frank Marshall.

[Alex 2,835]

As soon as they started reshoots:

[Schilkeman 964]

I can’t believe that we have to come in here and defend John Williams on a goddamned John Williams fan forum.

 

The man owes us nothing. Every score is a gift. This is not an athlete past his prime refusing to say no. Music doesn’t work that way. There is still intelligence and beauty to be found in his work, and I’m thankful that I know enough to recognize it. 

[GerateWohl 4,373]

10 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

Come on, we could talk about John Williams' swan song being a light and soulful score to a Steven Spielberg biopic. Instead, we're here talking about whether Dial Of Destiny is even all Williams.

I am not discussing if every note was written by Williams or not.  But you do. And even if every note in the score was written or adapted by John Williams himself some people would still discuss it. And people would still discuss the adapted cues and claim, like you do, they knew which ones were created by Williams and which not.

And that has nothing to do with Williams and his legacy but with the people aiming for such discussions.

[JTN 2,047]

19 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

Do you really want to say about John Williams' last score(s) "at least it's better than Lorne Balfe"?

No I don’t, but it’s his career and he decides what movie he wants to score and not even he has control over his own creativity. He could have stopped at MEMOIRS OF A GEISHA, now that would have been a great swan song. But I’m glad he didn’t, because he has since written ‘Rey’s Theme’ which has become one of my favorite JW themes. 
 

At the end of the day I believe it doesn’t matter what his last score is. All that matters is his body of work. 

9 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

even if every note in the score was written or adapted by John Williams himself some people would still discuss it.

Like people have been discussing for 21 years who wrote what in Chamber of Secrets. 

9 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

the people aiming for such discussions.

To which they have all the right without being mocked and ridiculed by others. After all @TolkienSSisn’t saying that JW is a pedophile or that he sexually abused Daisy Ridley (he wishes - Joking!!!). 

I agree, that it’s not elegant, let’s put it that way, to “accuse” John Williams of something nobody has any evidence of. 
And yes, of all the places, let’s not accuse JW of copying or plagiarizing or using ghosts here. I’m not angry with anyone who does, but I don’t find it elegant. It’s something they should do on the Hans Zimmer forum. ;-) 

 

Anyway, let’s stop talking about John Williams’ swan song and William Ross, and let’s try to focus on John Williams who at almost 92 is still working hard probably at this very instant composing a new work. And ain’t that a miracle all by itself? I believe it is. And I give thanks for it.

[TolkienSS 407]

5 hours ago, JTW said:

And yes, of all the places, let’s not accuse JW of copying or plagiarizing or using ghosts. I’m not angry with anyone who does, but I don’t find it elegant. It’s something they should do on the Hans Zimmer forum. ;-) 

 

Anyway, let’s stop talking about John Williams’ swan song and William Ross, and let’s try to focus on John Williams who at almost 92 is still working hard probably at this very instant composing a new work. And ain’t that a miracle all by itself? I believe it is. And I give thanks for it.

 

Huh?

There is an article posted talking about William Ross here, why not talk about it?

There are large and obvious chunks of tracking/rerecording in the score, so either JW did that himself, or someone adapted it for him. Nothing more, nothing less. 

There are only these two possibilities. 

And it's an obvious and fair question to ask who did it.

 

Are you suggesting to stop talking because it gets in a direction that's unpopular?

 

 

[Tom 4,673]

The article itself does say that Williams did the whole thing.  

[JTN 2,047]

1 hour ago, TolkienSS said:

Are you suggesting to stop talking because it gets in a direction that's unpopular?

All I'm suggesting, if anything, is to start being decent and not offend those on this forum who are some of the biggest fans of John Williams and might feel hurt by their favorite film composer being accused of not having written a score they love and there is absolutely no proof that he didn't write all of it. 

[crumbs 14,319]

It's interesting how Helena's Theme is woven into  some of the re-arranged passages from WOTW, etc. That definitely has JW's fingerprints all over it. 

[GerateWohl 4,373]

Diskussions are fine. But when those pure speculations end up in statements like 'what an unworthy finale of a career', then they appear a little bit like this: