Williams Scores Worth a 3 CD Set (like A.I., HP1, Superman and Hook)

[GerateWohl 4,370]

After A.I., Superman and Harry Potter 1 we got Hook now as a 3-CD set. This is a rare case as there is so much material for the movie.

 

Are there any other John Williams movie scores, of which you think, a 3-CD-set would make sense? I mean really single movies.

 

Some Star Wars scores come to mind, Rise of Skywalker in particular.

Any other score, where your dream edition would be a 3-CD set?

[filmmusic 1,829]

Nixon? I don't know.

Maybe there is enough music (including alternates, unused) for a 3-CD set.

[Thor 7,508]

8 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Are there any other John Williams movie scores, of which you think, a 3-CD-set would make sense?

 

No. Not HOOK either.

[Holko 9,526]

Sure but you hate JW's music!

[Thor 7,508]

Just now, Holko said:

Sure but you hate JW's music!

 

Yes, hate it.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

1 minute ago, filmmusic said:

Nixon? I don't know.

Maybe there is enough music (including alternates, unused) for a 3-CD set.

Interesting. Wouldn't have thought of this one as I thought there is not so much missing on the single disc OST.

1 minute ago, Holko said:

Sure but you hate JW's music!

I think, you will hardly find someone on this forum, who loves John William's music as much as Thor does.

Maybe you.

[crumbs 14,317]

Definitely all 3 of the Star Wars sequels. Probably ROTJ due to the alternate music recorded for the SE.

 

Don't forget Fiddler on the Roof and Goodbye Mr Chips were also 3CD expansions supervised by Mike

[GerateWohl 4,370]

2 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Don't forget Fiddler on the Roof and Goodbye Mr Chips were also 3CD expansions supervised by Mike

Right. I forgot these.

But they were not composed by Williams. 

Anyway, you are right. They should be counted in.

[crumbs 14,317]

It's possible something like Tintin has enough material for 3 discs, even though I think the score (on paper) is just barely enough to fit on 2 discs. He recorded so much of the movie twice.

 

But who knows what extra material was recorded we're not aware of.

[Holko 9,526]

Superman is an odd one out, it easily could have been 2 discs if Mike didn't include the film edits and only included the album-only overlay in what was it, Planet Krypton, but nothing else from the OST since it's all already there in the main program.

Fiddler kind of is too because there's a lot of shared material with only little difference between all 3 discs, a lot of repetition with differently timed vocal lines or added film stem choir or readded Stern lines or the different mono prerecording mix.

 

Hook, HP1 and AI all actually do have so much unique material that it wouldn't have fit onto anything less than 3 discs.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

4 minutes ago, crumbs said:

It's possible something like Tintin has enough material for 3 discs, even though I think the score (on paper) is just barely enough to fit on 2 discs. He recorded so much of the movie twice.

 

But who knows what extra material was recorded we're not aware of.

Interesting question. I thought, in case of animated movies there is not so much re-editing done, which doesn't give so much opportunities for alternates. And as you said, the score would easily fit on two discs.

4 minutes ago, Holko said:

Superman is an odd one out, it easily could have been 2 discs if Mike didn't include the film edits and only included the album-only overlay in what was it, Planet Krypton, but nothing else from the OST since it's all already there in the main program.

Fiddler kind of is too because there's a lot of shared material with only little difference between all 3 discs, a lot of repetition with differently timed vocal lines or added film stem choir or readded Stern lines or the different mono prerecording mix.

 

Hook, HP1 and AI all actually do have so much unique material that it wouldn't have fit onto anything less than 3 discs.

I agree.

[Jay 37,369]

Return of the Jedi

The Force Awakens

The Last Jedi

Rise of Skywalker

Dial of Destiny

[JTN 2,030]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

Return of the Jedi

The Force Awakens

The Last Jedi

Rise of Skywalker

Dial of Destiny

What about The Last Crusade? 

[crumbs 14,317]

11 minutes ago, JTW said:

What about The Last Crusade? 

 

I'm pretty sure everything from TLC fits on two discs, even allowing for multiple versions of cues (with and without inserts).

[GerateWohl 4,370]

4 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

I'm pretty sure everything from TLC fits on two discs, even allowing for multiple versions of cues (with and without inserts).

Same I would assume for Rise of Skywalker and The Last Jedi to be honest.

 

For Dial of Destiny there might be a third disk with all the stuff composed by William Ross. But was that also recorded?

[Brónach 1,302]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

Not HOOK either.

 

wdym, this contradicts your posts in the new Hook thread!

[GerateWohl 4,370]

Just now, Brónach said:

 

wdym, this contradicts your posts in the new Hook thread!

No. He would be fine with a 2-disk set. 1 disk the OST, another one with the songs.

[Brónach 1,302]

that would be silly since that cd already exists

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

What Thor means is that he wouldn't listen to everything in a 3-CD Hook set.

 

...But he is interested in the newly released unused songs from Hook, which were released (and, realistically, could only be released) on the 3-CD Hook set.

[JTN 2,030]

Thankfully JW, Mike and the specialty labels don’t think like Thor. They think like us: The more the merrier. Give us every note ever recorded and then some. Long live JW and his scores!

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

I would say that the first 6 Star Wars scores deserve a 3CD set. 2CD for the complete score and one for the OST.

VII, VIII deserve a 3CD for the complete score and definitly 4CD for TROS

 

Then there's the TV materials which would benefit from a 3CD set but that's just with the idea of a collection

[Thor 7,508]

1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

What Thor means is that he wouldn't listen to everything in a 3-CD Hook set.

 

...But he is interested in the newly released unused songs from Hook, which were released (and, realistically, could only be released) on the 3-CD Hook set.

 

That's correctamundo.

[mstrox 6,651]

All of these are actually worth a 4-CD set (gotta have the OST program).

[crumbs 14,317]

11 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Same I would assume for Rise of Skywalker and The Last Jedi to be honest.

 

Nope, those definitely need 3 discs. TROS might even need 4 depending on how many inserts were recorded, which means multiple versions of the same cues. 

 

If CD releases are even a thing by the time Disney pull a finger out and start working on them. Runtime won't really matter for a digital only release. 

[BrotherSound 2,242]

12 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Same I would assume for Rise of Skywalker and The Last Jedi to be honest.

Those had 226 minutes and 184 minutes recorded, respectively, well over the running time of two CDs, 160 minutes.

 

12 hours ago, crumbs said:

I'm pretty sure everything from TLC fits on two discs, even allowing for multiple versions of cues (with and without inserts).

I actually timed it out TLC one time, and I came up with:

 

Film Score Presentation 105 minutes

Source Music 9 minutes

Alternates 32 minutes

 

That would fit comfortably on 2 discs.

[Haasch 9]

Crystal Skull ought to be three. Complete score on 1 & 2, alternates on 2, OST (with its unique edits and such) on disc 3.

[Schilkeman 964]

I'm part of the "remaster the OST also," camp, so I say all the Indiana Jones and Star Wars scores would need at least 3-discs per film. The HP set should have had them, too, but the originals sound very good (same with Hook). Minority Report should have been 3.

[Holko 9,526]

I think it's a waste and a useless price bump to have another disc just for the same music copypasted in a worse order with bad edits. If the real program would overflow but just so that it still leaves space for the OST on the last disc and/or it's used to present unique pieces/alternates like WotW or ET or Eiger Sanction then cool.

[Schilkeman 964]

1 hour ago, Holko said:

I think it's a great idea and worth the price bump to have another disc just for the music in the composer's intended order with good edits.

Fixed

+remastered sound

 

[GerateWohl 4,370]

I mean, A.I. is such a great release especially because it doesn't just plug the OST to it as a third disk. 

My favourite Williams expansions are probably A.I. and Minority Report, besides the C&C program having a well curated bonus program of alternates, OST mixes and "source cues" like Dr. Know or the advert music where they belong, in the bonus section.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

On 24/11/2023 at 2:53 PM, GerateWohl said:

Any other score, where your dream edition would be a 3-CD set?

 

Dear Basketball.

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

4 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

I'm part of the "remaster the OST also," camp, so I say all the Indiana Jones and Star Wars scores would need at least 3-discs per film. The HP set should have had them, too, but the originals sound very good (same with Hook). Minority Report should have been 3.

 

Doing a 3-CD OST-inclusive Temple and Crusade would probably look very similar to Haasch's proposal for Crystal Skull: complete film score on Discs 1 and 2, Alternates at the end of Disc 2, OST rebuild on Disc 3, source music wherever it happens to fit.  (Temple could probably even have room for more goodies on Disc 3)

 

Raiders is short enough that a 2-CD set with the complete score and alternates (and maybe the diggers' song too, depending on how long it is...) could still fit a rebuild of the OST.

 

That said, though...  I think a 3-CD set of Raiders could work really well if you also included a rebuild of the DCC Album.  There's some unique edits on the DCC as well (the two Raiders March edits, In The Idol Temple, and German Sub/Nazi Hideout), and on top of that, it's a very well-loved program in its own right!

 

This would also give the complete score on the first two discs a little more freedom as well:

 

-Since the DCC Album has an edit of the end credits that matches the concert version of The Raiders March, there's no need to include it on the first two discs.  Disc 1 can start with 1m1 In The Jungle instead of one of the four Raiders March edits that each have a place on the other two discs.

 

-Since 1m2 The Cave has a clean opening on the DCC album, but has its ending overlapped with 1m3 The Rolling Ball (Original), the Disc 1 program could combine 1m1 In The Jungle with 1m2 The Cave as intended, and keep 1m3 The Rolling Ball (Original) as its own track.  This would present both combinations of these three cues while also giving enough material for them to be completely separated.

 

-Since 3m2 Thinking Of Marion is combined with 3m3 To Tibet in the DCC program, the main score program can keep them separated.

 

-Not only would there be plenty of room to have Desert Chase on Discs 1 and 3 use the Film Take of Indy's Feats, but Disc 2 could even have both the exact OST edit of Desert Chase, and another full version of Desert Chase with the uncut Album Take of Indy's Feats (and the album's two little non-volatile tweaks to Indy In Pursuit) in the alternates section!

 

On top of that, Disc 1's version of Desert Chase can combine Truck Chase with Indy's Feats as intended (in 4/4), while the Disc 3 version can retain the extra (5/4) beat during the transition, as per the DCC album.

[Holko 9,526]

I knew Indy collectors were hyperobsessive but come on

 

IMO an ideal expansion ignores everything that came before and just takes the actual recorded music on its own as its primary source and focus. If cues were written to be joined, join them, to hell with previous releases and rights shit. If slightly modifying the chronology and joining small cues onto others they weren't intended to be joined to truly improves the flow and doesn't mess with the musical narrative, do it, Mike's real good at that lately. Then include all the interesting alternate material, and then if you have space left over on the already used discs, maybe the OST. Earlier attempts can serve as inspiration of course but replicating all the previous releases of the same music just for the sake of replicating them is way too much. The ideal expansion would be THE definitive version that supersedes the earlier ones in every way anyway, the only reason one should want to keep them alive is uncritical nostalgia. At most if there's space, include some clean versions of cues that were joined in the main program to help buyers with DIY recreation or reordering if they want.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

On 24/11/2023 at 3:55 PM, Jay said:

Return of the Jedi

The Force Awakens

The Last Jedi

Rise of Skywalker

Dial of Destiny

 

You know things, don't you? 

[Jay 37,369]

Like how long my favorite composer's scores are? Yeah. 

[Richard Penna 3,694]

On 27/11/2023 at 8:36 AM, Holko said:

At most if there's space, include some clean versions of cues that were joined in the main program to help buyers with DIY recreation or reordering if they want.

 

Given how much we all like to move things and rearrange official expansions to suit our tastes and preferences, I'd think it better for archival expansions like these scores to be as 'DIY' as possible when it comes to arrangement of tracks, and therefore that probably means not merging tracks where they don't need to be.

 

Ideally a producer would have a mentality of including a piece because someone, somewhere might want it, instead of trying to tie themselves in knots over how to include everything in a playlist which plays well.

 

But I come from the view that ordering-wise these sets are a starting point for individual listeners. The producer puts magnificent effort into remastering and suggesting a playing order, but we will all have opinions on said order.

[Holko 9,526]

I do some rearranging too sometimes, but there's definitely a balance to it all. Quidditch Match should never be 4 separate tracks, they gotta be joined as they were written to be joined, Desert Chase should never be 3 tracks but 1 joined as intended, etc.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

If I look at the two positions, on the one hand people asking for single recorded snippets to allow them creating their own arrangments and suites and on the other hand people complaining on the Dial of Destiny BluRay audio track how dismembered the actual cues are, put together by people who actually have a word on this, I am not sure if it really is a good idea and does these musical works justice to present them as kind of construction kit for hobby mixers.

 

I rather tend to accept the composers work as presented by him or his nominated producer. But that's just my personal position.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Most of the time the producer's program is fine, tbh. My stance is more that once they've decided what to include, they shouldn't put too much overthinking into the ordering of bonus tracks, or worrying about similar material being next to each other, because a lot of us will either shift some stuff around, or just not include everthing.

 

Hence I have no time for those who get the set and start crying that bonus track 'A' has been put at the end of the program, instead of at the start. They're such easily fixable things for you.

 

So it's not really a construction kit, but putting together the suggested program in a way that leaves things open for the consumer.

[Brónach 1,302]

42 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Hence I have no time for those who get the set and start crying that bonus track 'A' has been put at the end of the program, instead of at the start. They're such easily fixable things for you.

 

yeah

 

to me, The Lost World score starts with The Island's Voice. (which it does). I can see the argument against that, but my sensibilities also prevent me from things such as "play the Raider's march at the beginning of Raiders instead of the mysterious jungle opening" and it's the same logic that makes E.T. start with weird sounds instead of a musical spoiler (i see you reedited version of the movie).

[oierem 152]

17 minutes ago, Brónach said:

 

yeah

 

to me, The Lost World score starts with The Island's Voice. (which it does). I can see the argument against that, but my sensibilities also prevent me from things such as "play the Raider's march at the beginning of Raiders instead of the mysterious jungle opening" and it's the same logic that makes E.T. start with weird sounds instead of a musical spoiler (i see you reedited version of the movie).

 

I agree with that. I don't like to "spoil" the score by placing the final/concert/end-credits version of the main theme at the beginning. 

 

That being said, what's your opinion about the "Prologue" from Hook? In a way, it's a spoilery track, and it doesn't belong to the opening of the film. On the other hand, it was composed for the teaser, and the beginning is just magical. So I don't know about my playlist yet.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

In the old days there used to be overtures of the score before the movie even started. Then came the opening titles presenting the main theme. Then the movie started with whatever. But later the movie makers decided, it was cooler to start directly the movie with some mysterious low music. 

Maybe composers like Williams miss that appreciation of their music and put from time to time the main theme as some kind of overture at the beginning of their soundtrack album.

I find that ok for an OST. But at a C&C presentation I like, when the album starts like the movie.

[Brónach 1,302]

as for Hook: i have no idea! i defer to the producers

[Richard Penna 3,694]

I couldn't actually remember where my TLW concert piece is, and it turns out I left it at the start, probably because it's in the end credits too, so it made more sense there.

 

But in other places, having it at the end is better for listening, as a kind of closing overture. Hence the point being that no one should be arguing over these small things because people prefer them differently.

[mstrox 6,651]

Every once in a rare while I’ll reorder something (like the Elfman expansions that are OST+bonus tracks) into chronological order for a single listen, but otherwise I leave albums untouched and play them in order, stopping at the beginning of the bonus section.  Making personal individual album playlists seems like a lot of work I don’t want to do!

[GerateWohl 4,370]

1 hour ago, mstrox said:

..., but otherwise I leave albums untouched and play them in order, stopping at the beginning of the bonus section.  Making personal individual album playlists seems like a lot of work I don’t want to do!

Same here. But sometimes I skip the first five to eight first track and start the album somewhere in the middle. Mainly after recongnizing, that I know the album beginning very well but concentraition goes down after the first 30 minutes. This way, I  experience the album from another angle and get to know it better as a whole. 

[Gurkensalat 340]

20 hours ago, Jay said:

Like how long my favorite composer's scores are? Yeah. 

About the Star Wars scores I was aware of the length, but I didnt realize that Dial of Destiny has more than 160 minutes of music recorded. I hope one day all this becomes available.  

[Jay 37,369]

It's true, I don't think a number has been shared of how many minutes of music has been recorded for DOD, like there was for each Star Wars sequel trilogy score.

 

However, Mangold said it was over 2 hours, and looking at the list of cues used in the film, the sheer amount of patches and inserts makes me pretty confident in saying you'd need 3 discs to present it all properly, IE, cues repeated as bonus tracks without inserts (or with unused inserts) instead of just presenting all the inserts in their own short bonus tracks.

[Brónach 1,302]

i never know what i prefer about presenting inserts. a part of me wants them on the side of the larger cue, but also, that's not the idea, but also, the larger cue is the original alternate and its existence was also intentional, but

[Jay 37,369]

My answer to that is: It all depends!  Every score is different, every cue is different.  Treat each on a case by case basis.