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I don't think it's elitist at all, there's plenty of truth to it. Williams' modern style is less "direct," less reliant on simple melodies and more orchestrationally complex than scores of prior decades, layered and rich with overlapping counterpoint. It's music that opens up and rewards upon multiple listens, but suffers greatly in modern mixing rooms where hundreds of layers of competing SFX are given priority. It's also the exact opposite of modern scoring trends, where scores hit people over the head with repetitive drum loops, "minimalist" piano solos and obnoxiously loud sampled brass. In their defense, this successfully cuts through the swamp of SFX but hardly rewards as a standalone listening experience. Casuals simply don't have the patience to "unlock" Williams' modern scores, instead lamenting why every score doesn't sound like Duel of the Fates (or worse, a trailer remix version of Duel of the Fates). They can't seem to grasp that Williams excels at nuance, a trait few other modern composers seem to possess.

Huh? Genuinely puzzled by this. The award isn’t for the composer who reaches/tops their previous work; it’s for the best score of a given year… It’s entirely possible for JW to write a score that “doesn’t reach the heights of his most classic works,” and for that score to still happen to be better than the other contenders...

Those kind of stupid outrage videos are proven to get plenty of views and Disney content is often the target. It appeals to the lowest of the low. Also, unless a new JW score contains a "song" as EPIC!!!!! as Duel of the Fates, some people are going to say it's a bad score. I think JW's scores since TFA require attention to recognise their quality, which I don't think the haters are giving it. I don't know if that makes me sound elitist or a JW fanboy, but I think it's true.

At 6:03 in this video, this imbecile says that there was not a single original composition in the entire Dial of Destiny score. What tiny amount of respect and good will I had for this guy disappeared in an instant. I usually prefer to restrain myself, but this fucking moron is so dense it’s unbelievable. I can’t even put into words how much his asinine comments rubbed me the wrong way. After all the JW-hate going around due to his latest nomination, I thought to revisit the Dial score myself for the first time in a few months. Literally after the opening few minutes of the Prologue, I completely understand why this was nominated and even deserves a win. It’s incredible music, more sophisticated, evocative and thematically/orchestrally-competent than any other film score of 2023. And I personally love Ludwig’s Oppenheimer score! But to say JW doesn’t deserve a nomination for Dial on its own merits demonstrates the highest level of musical ignorance. Also, Schaffrillas goes on to claim that there’s no way JW even wrote the Dial score because he’s “fucking 90 years old”. Once again, a relatively influential voice on the internet spreading the completely baseless lie that JW doesn’t write his own music anymore. The man has more talent and creativity than 10 other film composers put together, and for goodness’ sake, he’s in good health and touring the freaking world conducting symphony orchestras! So he’s more than capable of writing his own music, even if he uses a little additional help now and then, like he has done on several projects over the years (so it’s nothing new). Just because he’s been nominated so frequently in the past for the incredible music he’s written does not mean he has no right to be nominated for his next masterwork. Imagine saying an incredible athlete shouldn’t be allowed to win the gold medal this year because they’ve won so many in the past and it’s time to give someone else a shot. Come on!! For all the talk of JW-bias, I sense a stronger than usual amount of anti-JW sentiment in much of the discussion I’ve seen online. And frankly, people being salty and flat out mad that a 91 year-old film composing legend is being nominated for an Oscar for an outstanding score, even if it’s for a less than stellar film, is baffling to me.

Why is Williams the only composer being singled out in all these articles? Do they not realise 4 other scores were also nominated? Or are those scores exempt from criticism because they're attached to critical darlings? This just reiterates that most scores aren't judged on their merits anymore, but the merits of the film they're attached to. Good on the music branch for sticking to their guns. IMO no musical composition from 2023 comes close to Helena's Theme. Williams earned his nomination for those two arrangements plus Prologue, The Airport, Syracuse and Centuries Join Hands alone (which contain probably 15 seconds of pre-existing material combined).

FIXED

A 2023 JW score shouldn't have to compare against JW's best work to earn a nomination. It should only have to compare against other 2023 scores. I love the DoD score but I think even its strongest defenders will acknowledge it cannot match his 1981 - 1989 output or even perhaps KOTCS. But that's not the point of the Oscars. It should only be nominated for its merits as a 2023 score and not as a score when benchmarked against the composer's greatest works.

Exactly this. It's like arguing Williams was only nominated for the Star Wars sequels because he's John Williams, then pointing to Rogue One not being nominated as evidence for your argument. Personally I think he was nominated because the music branch considered his music for Indy 5 amongst the 5 best film scores of the year.

The primary difference would be John's score would be better written, and hence deserving of a nomination.

WRONG. They're also about the taxation of trade routes. Pull yourself together.

Fixed.

I think part of the reason I didn't like the later films much is exactly what you detailed - everything is cold, clinical and modelled over architecture we recognise. Potter was never that for me from the books - it was surprising, unpredictable, with rooms that seemed to go on forever and a sense that if you stepped on the wrong thing, the floor would collapse like Indy, or inanimate objects that started talking to you. Almost a sense that no one, not teachers, not Dumbledore really knew where everything was, and they'd have to cancel potions until tomorrow because the room's disappeared... The first film was actually a bit disappointing in that respect as well. They shot the interiors at a couple of Cathedrals in part iirc, and it looks it. It needs to look like a huge posh boarding school but where everything's gone a bit strange and the set designer has taken inspiration from the Tardis, i.e. bigger on the inside I Guillermo Del Toro version would be interesting, after Pan's Labyrinth, one of the most imaginative films I've ever seen.

Yes, what each of us personally finds "thrilling" is subjective, as is what each of us finds emotionally stirring. Some people might find an RCP power anthem or a pop song thrilling, and that is perfectly legitimate. Our emotional responses are all different. With that in mind, listeners must also consider the objective elements of compositional craft (melodic construction, harmony, chord voicings, orchestration, thematic application, etc.) when trying to properly judge film music, and I (and many other listeners) note Williams to be miles ahead of the rest of today's composers in that regard. You might not personally find each and every score he writes to be as emotionally engaging as what you consider to be his best (i.e. The Quidditch Match), but by that same standard, you also can't say that they aren't emotionally engaging to other listeners (or even a majority of listeners, as you yourself identified in your post). BTW I couldn't care less about the Oscars - I think it's mostly a lot of nonsense and is no guarantee of quality. I'm just stunned by the view that the Dial of Destiny score is less worthy than the other nominees because John Williams has been nominated in the past or because it isn't as iconic as other celebrated scores he's written.

As the music branch is obviously comprised of composers, I think it is reasonable to say that they recognised the technical complexity and musical mastery of DoD which non-musical commentators would not be aware of. It reminds me of reviews I see on YT for cameras by professional photographers. I often see comments saying that iPhone cameras are much better but the professional photographer will have a whole different criteria for judging a camera compared to the general public.

If we're gonna hold the man responsible for completely misrepresenting JW, then we should also stop ourselves before we make equally inaccurate statements on others. Schaffrillas is far from the average YT algorithm abuser, on the basis that he generally does care about the medium of film, making sure to adequately discuss every aspect in a way that the likes of MauLer and Critical Drinker would view as detrimental to maintaining their core audiences. It's certainly a pretty boilerplate sort of approach a lot of the time, but it's a pretty solid baseline for what a more casual moviegoer might think. But you might notice my choice of words there, because ultimately: the casual moviegoer is incredibly clueless about film music. They legitimately do not know what they like and want, since the music is ultimately going to be on the bottom of their list of things to think about if it's non-diegetic. If they ever noticed, it's because the film was either too iconic to not praise every aspect, or too despised to feel any aspect has actual merit (or they have a special connection to the film, but then that's more rooted in the individual experience). And something like the prior comments on the MCU is a prime example of this kind of contradictory think, because wasn't the general complaint there supposed to be that there's no real consistent personality in the sound? Well why the fuck then are they suddenly deciding it's a bad thing in the case of Indy? Aren't you glad the series managed to stick to its guns on the sound front? Especially when the actual film itself might've deviated from the formula a bit, potentially inspiring opportunities for actual deviations in the sound? Or does it not matter if the whole package made you too angry to actually pay attention? If it's the latter, then why say anything at all? It is truly stark the difference between the way some guy talks about film music versus the way a proper veteran of the medium might. How someone might accuse a soundtrack of being emotionally manipulative, versus how that same piece can really speak to people. It makes it harder for me to gauge just what exactly it is they like about movies, because are they truly enjoying the craft if every single aspect are variables you could consider cynically manufactured? Like this for example. He can claim to like the man's work despite mentioning it in a negative light more often than he might care to admit (I haven't forgotten his comments on The Lost World and Amistad from his Spielberg ranking video), but this is quite direct proof that artistry can be thrown aside for the sake of intruding cynicism. DoD is a blatant cash grab through and through, so why wouldn't the music just be 2 hours of greatest hits? Why pay attention to the acting and lost potential in the story if the mouse behind it all is always there? I really don't know if I have much of a point ultimately, besides the fact that people can get carried away if their biases let them affect the way they enjoy media too much. Schaff certainly has every right to be mad at Disney for their malpractices, but at the point you start sounding like the reactionaries you hate by straight up stating lies because it wouldn't be for anything major for most people is truly a careless move to be making.

They're composed by the same person*. *William Ross.

I skimmed through to roughly 9 minutes in and the first thing I hear is him describing the "song" Canto Bight. As if it wasn't obvious enough the guy has no idea what he's talking about.

It’s all great artwork , but still terribly arranged for a soundtrack cover. I prefer the way Jim Titus masterfully took the vertical Struzan poster art and tastefully brought it to square proportions.

I feel the same way about virtually all of the Wizarding World as portrayed in the films post PoA. Instead of absurdist, magical, interesting architecture we just get... retro real-world buildings. The Ministry of Magic is deliberately modelled after the London and Moscow undergrounds and it shows - on one hand I see how suggesting a time and place can be effective visual storytelling, but it also contradicts the social structure of the magical society as it's portrayed in the books. The buildings are supposed to be weird - most witches and wizards look down on Muggles (whether that's affectionately or sinisterly) so it doesn't make much sense that their aesthetic is virtually the same. It's the same with the clothing/robes - they're supposed to be flamboyant but in the films they're either nonexistent or just lightly tailored suits/variations on Muggle fashion. Don't get me started on the portrayal of actual magic/spells. As @Holko pointed out everything's strangely mechanical and logical when it should be bizarre and absurd. We never see any interesting spells or charms, especially from GoF onwards - it's all just generic jets of light, shields and explosions. Yates is squarely responsible IMO, for going with the "realistic, grounded and gritty" aesthetic that dominates the franchise. I hope the show goes to someone with vision and flair, someone weird - imagine Terry Gilliam (who Rowling originally wanted to direct) producing this show, it would be amazing!

The Kathleen Kennedy bashing is so tired. Films produced by Kennedy have grossed $13.3 billion dollars worldwide. Financially she's the third most successful producer in history, behind only Kevin Feige (Marvel) and David Heyman (Harry Potter, Barbie). If not for Kennedy, we likely never get a trilogy of new John Williams Star Wars scores, nor a theme for Solo, Obi-Wan, or a fifth Indiana Jones. She's also, along with husband Frank, one of Mike's biggest advocates when it comes to score expansions. It's easy (and lazy) to make throwaway barbs about someone's apparent lack of talent, but the data doesn't back it up. If anything, it was Kennedy's lack of micro-managing filmmakers on the Star Wars sequels that led to the issues fans level squarely on her shoulders.

The prequels are!

You might've avoided those responses by adding a "just" to that sentence. Star Wars is not just about space ships, lightsaber duels, or physical wars.

LOL Tom Holland’s Box Office Bonus for Marvel Was Sent to British Actor Tom Hollander by Mistake: ‘An Astonishing Amount of Money… a Seven-Figure Sum’

Exactly.

If he's spread the workload out more than season 1, there's probably less chance of him needing to call on assistants. But I couldn't tell you what his team wrote on Outlander, so if the result's good, who cares My hope is that he continues the episode albums.

John Williams did not compose "Por una cabeza", he arranged it, just like your friend did. The piece was originally written by Carlos Gardel, who died in 1935 and whose music, as far as I can tell, is no longer under copyright. If your arrangement is of Gardel's melody, without reference to Williams's particular version, then you do not need permission to arrange the melody.

To be fair to Schaffrillas, I've never heard of him before this thread. But when it comes to film takes on YT, especially where Disney is concerned, there is so much garbage that I tend to start with the assumption that videos are from algorithm feeding haters until demonstrated otherwise.

I've never heard of the guy He has a whopping 6700 subscribers on YouTube. Based on his comments, he didn't even listen to the soundtrack, which has barely any pre-existing music. Just add him to the pile of ignorant screeching morons that rely on clickbait and outrage porn to earn a living. These self-proclaimed "content creators" aren't even scraping the bottom of the barrel, they're the rotting mould beneath it.

Andor is a better thing to watch on Disney+ than a bad Indiana Jones movie

I'm just happy Williams received a nomination. The man is almost 92 years old, a true living legend and his music has enriched my life for over three decades. For those offended, annoyed, upset or what other negative emotion his nomination has triggered: it must kinda suck to be you.

You lived to be into your 50s before knowing what ramen is?

Oh he does to some extent - he said in a Droughtlander podcast that his team is basically to help out when anything unexpected comes in, or to help when he needs to spend more time on a piece and make revisions. But probably not to the extent that he explicitly plans to only write a certain amount. It sounded like he does what he can himself.

Yeah, early on, they saved money by shooting a lot of Hogwarts interiors and exteriors at Lacock Abbey, Alnwick Castle, Durham Cathedral, Gloucester Cathedral, Oxford, etc. As the series went on, they were able to afford more sets, and the location shoots dwindled. But either way, the castle is very different in the films than in the books.

I get that. But I do think Howard Shore's and Plan 9's contributions to Season One were extremly worthwhile. It'd be lovely to hear Shore's themes peppered into Bear's score, too.

Where is the evidence for that besides from your infallible stomach feeling that Williams' DoD score has no award value apart from his name?

Schaff is sometimes quite uninformed when it comes to cinema in general, but Sideways has had his fair share of saying stupid shit... His Tarzan video comes to mind or his video about Silvestri's Avengers making him unable to not think of Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man. I don't dissaprove that they express their opinions freely; my only problem is when the consumers of their channels (or any YT channel for that matter) repeat the discourse like it's some kind of gospel. /oldmanrantover

So what you're saying is that Williams only got nominated because... he's Williams. There's no merit whatsoever in his score for DoD. Probably the music branch didn't even hear his music, they just saw his name on the credits and went like "oh, this movie was scored by John Williams? Let's give him a nom quickly!". And because of that he has stolen the place of people who worked harder and actually deserved being there, such as Pemberton or Ronson for Barbie, or maybe Anthony Willis for Saltburn or whatever. If Williams only gets nominations on the basis of his name, why was he excluded in 2008 for Indy 4? It's a John Williams score, so it MUST be nominated, regardless of it being good or not (judging by your arguments, Williams could literally just whistle for one hour and he'd be nominated all the same). Or why was he excluded in 1992, the year where he wrote not one but two scores? Shouldn't he get two noms that year then? Nevermind that after years of controversies the Academy voters are much younger and more diverse now than in 92 or 2008. Theoretically they should've given noms to Pemberton and Ronson. So if they chose JW over these guys is because they think that the DOD score is not actually that unworthy.

As was hinted above, Williams takes a lot of inspiration from Walton, particularly in terms of orchestration. The lively episode between 21:46-22:51 might as well have come straight out of one of Williams' scores.

If you want scary, visit the DoD disenchantment thread.

I watched The Nun II a few weeks ago with my kid. Surprisingly, with its religious artifact driven plot and “Map Room” scene lift, it’s got a little bit of Indiana Jones in its DNA. Stick with me here, I have a point. Temple of Doom was scary!!!! But then, so was Raiders. I was 9 when Raiders came out. The spike trap, Well of Souls, the mummies, the Ark Ghosts, and melting Nazis had us all screaming. Spielberg clearly was still the child who liked to scare people. And then something happened. He began the quest for Oscar Gold beginning with the Color Purple. And that moment changed him forever from a rebellious whiz kid into a “serious” filmmaker. Temple of Doom is a delightful hair raising scare ride. Last Crusade? Not scary. KOTCS? No scares in there. Dial of Destiny? Nothing remotely scary there. I like a good scare once in a while, and I miss the devilish Spielberg who enjoyed playing with the audience’s fears. Temple of Doom is king here. I miss scary Indiana Jones.

McCreary and his wife Raya just had another baby so I don't blame him for taking it easy during 2023 after the banner year he had in 2022. I'll bet he's also been directing whatever free energies he has towards RoP season 2, and frankly that's what I want him to do. I hope he continues scoring that series solo as he did on season 1 and doesn't start farming out to assistants like he's done on other shows. Whoa I just came across this on Wikipedia: "Composer Bear McCreary received scripts for the season the day after he completed work on the first season's music. He began composing music for the second season by November 2022, including some that was needed during filming, and expressed excitement at being involved in the season from the beginning and being able to pace out his work better than on the first season." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings:_The_Rings_of_Power_(season_2) Yavar

Plenty of salt on the subreddits, but plenty of love elsewhere for JW's nomination. Just to counter the negativity:

Really don't get why everyone expected Spider Verse a shoo-in to get a nomination. It was clever but not even the fourth best Spider Man score. Superhero avatars always tend to overinflate the quality of certain scores (The Batman last year). The Oscar hopes for that movie in general were very forced (like when people expected No Way Home to get a best picture nom)

It is quite unspectacular in a way, but also very effective. As Thor pointed out, what makes it special is that it is really well spotted. In the film it is effectively used as kind of a constant anxious thumping (less in a muscial and more in a figurative sense). Another pro is the vintage sound. As many have pointed out, it's barely enjoyable on album, but really cool in the film. It beats Indy V in originality, so there's that.

It doesn't.

First reviews are in and they are very positive!!!

Well a global pandemic did sweep the globe mere weeks after TROS was released. Coincidence? I'll let you decide...