Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (Score in the film) - SPOILERS ALLOWED!

[Tydirium 1,167]

18 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

JW: *sees a lot of Nazis on screen*. *turns around to the recording booth*

 

"James, is this Germany??"

 

Mangold:

*utterly flabbergasted that John Williams is looking and talking to him*

*also can't really understand him from afar*

*mouths the word 'wow'

*nods his head with excitement anyways with two thumbs up*

 

*JW thinks he said "what"

JW: "no! i said is this part in Germany!?"

 

Mangold:  *still has both thumbs up, smiling*

 

JW: *grabs his pencil from behind his ear*

 

"fuck it, Germany, 1944.

 

This track title thing is really bothering you, huh? 

[Bellosh 3,419]

3 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

 

This track title thing is really bothering you, huh? 

 

lol im just fascinated this happened with such a big movie/score

[JWilliamsFan1999 47]

My favorite Indy scores are definitely Raiders Of The Lost Ark, Temple Of Doom, Last Crusade and Dial Of Destiny.

 

Favorite cues:

 

Raiders: All of them

Temple Of Doom: Salom on Mt. Humol, Sanskrit Sacrifice/Temple Of Doom, Mine Cart Chase, End Credits Suite

Last Crusade: Scherzo For Motorcycle For Orchestra

Dial Of Destiny: Helena's Theme, Germany, 1944, Tuk Tuk In Tangiers, Water Ballet and New York, 1969

 

 

If I have to pick one from Raiders though, I would have to pick Desert Chase

[Tydirium 1,167]

38 minutes ago, JWilliamsFan1999 said:

If I have to pick one from Raiders though, I would have to pick Desert Chase

 

Great choice!

[Tom 4,661]

3 hours ago, Tydirium said:

 

Great choice!

Like with most films of that era, the chief "special effect" that made you believe it was real was music and music mixed loudly, and JW was (and is) the master.  I am convinced that if many recent CGI fests (including DoD) had given Williams near final edits and then let the music be loud, they would be convincing--instead of the hollow, obvious fakery that the mind perceives (and does not enjoy).  

[paleo 63]

I just watched the movie the second time, this time under better sound conditions, so now I could really enjoy (and discern, actually) the music much better. I noticed so many little nuggets left off the OST album... almost infutiating how the OST frequently skips very interisting passages... actually some of the highlights, IMO. 😆 

There is great unreleased music on the train in the beginning (basically everything from the moment Indy gets his hat and whip back). The full version of Voller Returns is great, as is a missing passage when Indy reads the Grafikos disc (descending woodwinds, mirroring the approach to Archimedes' skeleton in his tomb). Then there is the remainder of Archimedes Tomb, really the culmination of the mystery aspects of the score, with a great crescendo. Not to mention all the great stuff in ancient Syracuse. Just love it.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

9 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

And Hogwarts Forever being the Gryffindor theme…

 

He wrote Hogwarts Forever to be the school anthem, it has lyrics and was recorded for the film. You can hear it on the LLL set! A better example is Hedwig's Theme, I can only think of two scenes across the entire franchise where it's used when the owl's actually featured... and neither of them were Williams' scores (GoF and DH1).

[Datameister 2,044]

14 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

 

He wrote Hogwarts Forever to be the school anthem, it has lyrics and was recorded for the film. You can hear it on the LLL set! A better example is Hedwig's Theme, I can only think of two scenes across the entire franchise where it's used when the owl's actually featured... and neither of them were Williams' scores (GoF and DH1).

 

Hedwig's Theme was so titled before JW had seen any of the film. The original short version was written based on his impressions of the first book and it was expanded into a few versions for the trailers. Then he used it where it felt right in the actual film score and arranged a full-length credits version based on the trailer cues. That version made it onto the OST with the Hedwig's Theme name.

 

 

[mrbellamy 6,287]

36 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

He wrote Hogwarts Forever to be the school anthem, it has lyrics and was recorded for the film. You can hear it on the LLL set! A better example is Hedwig's Theme, I can only think of two scenes across the entire franchise where it's used when the owl's actually featured... and neither of them were Williams' scores (GoF and DH1).

 

"Bird's Flight" from POA, definitely. 

 

And of course JW uses it a lot for the owls in general in the first one. 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

11 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

 

"Bird's Flight" from POA, definitely. 

 

And of course JW uses it a lot for the owls in general in the first one. 

He uses it for everything in the first one

[Brando 1,864]

3 hours ago, paleo said:

I just watched the movie the second time, this time under better sound conditions, so now I could really enjoy (and discern, actually) the music much better. I noticed so many little nuggets left off the OST album... almost infutiating how the OST frequently skips very interisting passages... actually some of the highlights, IMO. 😆 

There is great unreleased music on the train in the beginning (basically everything from the moment Indy gets his hat and whip back). The full version of Voller Returns is great, as is a missing passage when Indy reads the Grafikos disc (descending woodwinds, mirroring the approach to Archimedes' skeleton in his tomb). Then there is the remainder of Archimedes Tomb, really the culmination of the mystery aspects of the score, with a great crescendo. Not to mention all the great stuff in ancient Syracuse. Just love it.

Oh yes, the music on the train is so so good. Also, I did my second viewing of the movie on Saturday and the 2 scenes on the plane stood out to me, the music is particularly good in those 2 scenes.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

The Nazi theme is kind of like if Anthem of Evil was actually used in the TROS score (the melody itself is a lot more simple and effective too). 

 

Also it has a great "villain's destruction" moment that we never really got in the ST (Snoke and Palpatine's deaths were both scored with the upbeat renditions force theme)

[Tydirium 1,167]

47 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

The Nazi theme is kind of like if Anthem of Evil was actually used in the TROS score (the melody itself is a lot more simple and effective too). 

 

Also it has a great "villain's destruction" moment that we never really got in the ST (Snoke and Palpatine's deaths were both scored with the upbeat renditions force theme)

 

There’s a really great rendition of the theme that plays as the train is speeding along. Too bad it’s not on the album.

[petek66 27]

On 9/7/2023 at 10:07 PM, JWilliamsFan1999 said:

 

Well, the film starts in Germany, 1944 and it ends in 1969 in New York

 

And you’d need a title for Syracuse, 212 B.C. for completeness, I suppose.

 

I thought it would be cool to have a map scene when they are flying into the fissure and have the map morph from 1969 to a map of the world as it was in 212 B.C.

[paleo 63]

In the movie it is mentioned several times that they are in 213 BC, not 212. It's the beginning of the siege, which makes sense, given that Archimedes needs time to finish the dial (he was killed right after the Roman victory, after all) ;-)

[p0llux 398]

My second and final attempt at an end credits suite for this movie. I think I'm satisfied with this, even though I went way over on time.

-Added excerpt from "Auction At Hotel L’Atlantique".
-Added excerpt from "To Athens".

 

 

[Marc 768]

Finally saw the movie a few days ago and I have to say hearing a brand new JW score for the first time in the theater is still a one-of-a-kind experience !
I always find myself fascinated by it all, down to the very last note of the end credits (at which point I pretty much always find myself alone in the theater since, well...practically everybody walks out before the very end, which I never do and which IMO is even more sacrilegious when it is JW music !!)
But yeah, thank you Maestro for still gifting us with these wonders 🙏

[BB-8 3,479]

1 hour ago, Marc said:

Finally saw the movie a few days ago and I have to say hearing a brand new JW score for the first time in the theater is still a one-of-a-kind experience !
I always find myself fascinated by it all, down to the very last note of the end credits (at which point I pretty much always find myself alone in the theater since, well...practically everybody walks out before the very end, which I never do and which IMO is even more sacrilegious when it is JW music !!)
But yeah, thank you Maestro for still gifting us with these wonders 🙏

Before my second viewing I actually approached the cinema owner and asked him not to stop the end credits. He told me that there wouldn't be any further scene at the end, so I had to explain that it's about the music that I would like to enjoy completely. He looked a little surprised but said he would do anything to please his clients and left everything running until the very end.

 

I was happy to read at the very end (after the music) that the German voice for Harrison Ford hasn't changed since Star Wars Episode IV...1978!:

 

 

Synchronsprecher Harrison Ford - Wolfgang Pampel - Synchronsprecher

 

Wolfgang Pampel – Wikipedia

 

[paleo 63]

4 hours ago, BB-8 said:

Before my second viewing I actually approached the cinema owner and asked him not to stop the end credits. He told me that there wouldn't be any further scene at the end, so I had to explain that it's about the music that I would like to enjoy completely. He looked a little surprised but said he would do anything to please his clients and left everything running until the very end.

 

I was happy to read at the very end (after the music) that the German voice for Harrison Ford hasn't changed since Star Wars Episode IV...1978!:

 

 

Synchronsprecher Harrison Ford - Wolfgang Pampel - Synchronsprecher

 

Wolfgang Pampel – Wikipedia

 

He even provided the voice for Indy in some of the Indiana Jones PC games. Because of him, I first watched the German version of the new movie, which I rarely do.

[Brando 1,864]

5 hours ago, BB-8 said:

He told me that there wouldn't be any further scene at the end, so I had to explain that it's about the music that I would like to enjoy completely.

Would they have stopped the credits if you hadn't asked???

[BB-8 3,479]

1 hour ago, Brando said:

Would they have stopped the credits if you hadn't asked???

Yes, very likely. They have done so very recently and justified it as being an energy-saving measure in these "hard times".

[Brando 1,864]

1 minute ago, BB-8 said:

Yes, very likely. They have done so very recently and justified it as being an energy-saving measure in these "hard times".

That's...strange? I don't think I've ever been to a movie where they don't show the credits.

[TolkienSS 407]

4 minutes ago, BB-8 said:

Yes, very likely. They have done so very recently and justified it as being an energy-saving measure in these "hard times".

 

You should have suggested cutting the film down further 20 minutes for pleasing his customers.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

They should have cut the 45 minutes of previews instead

[Bellosh 3,419]

this movie should have been shorter!

 

even spielbergs worst movies are brilliantly paced.

 

 

 

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

22 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

He wrote Hogwarts Forever to be the school anthem, it has lyrics and was recorded for the film. You can hear it on the LLL set! A better example is Hedwig's Theme, I can only think of two scenes across the entire franchise where it's used when the owl's actually featured... and neither of them were Williams' scores (GoF and DH1).

 

Well ok, maybe he was confused even while writing it.  But I maintain that the main melody is clearly used specifically for Gryffindor in the film.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

In my prior, brief cinema-going phase, leaving during the credits was normal. I stayed with others after 1917 because we were so blown away by the ending that we just sort of sat there, but it wasn't specifically for the music. I know it's hard for some here to accept, but most people will hear the Raiders March end and hear some other orchestral 'stuff' start, and decide it's time to leave. It's not John Williams in concert.

 

Leaving before the orchestra stops at a LTP is a bit more questionable but given how late those things start plus the lengthy interval and how long the credits can be, some people will need to make sure they catch their last train home (if it's London for example). Unfortunately, real life does sometimes get in the way of a four hour plus theatre experience if the main event is essentially over.

[JWilliamsFan1999 47]

 

I recommend this podcast to everyone here in the John Williams forum. Great podcast that gives a pretty good analysis of John Williams's entire career. Just released a new episode on the score of Indiana Jones And The Dial Of Destiny.

[bigjimwilson 256]

On 11/07/2023 at 7:21 AM, p0llux said:

My second and final attempt at an end credits suite for this movie. I think I'm satisfied with this, even though I went way over on time.

-Added excerpt from "Auction At Hotel L’Atlantique".
-Added excerpt from "To Athens".

 

 

This is great!

I've been thinking about trying to achieve something similar, but putting Helena back at the end along with this little transition......  

 

[Jilal 569]

@bigjimwilson I don't know how strict the mods are in this regard, but the forum rules state that "copyrighted audio of more than 30 seconds in length cannot be uploaded onto our servers and saved as an attachment to your post."

 

 

[BB-8 3,479]

17 minutes ago, bigjimwilson said:

This is great!

I've been thinking about trying to achieve something similar, but putting Helena back at the end along with this little transition......  

 

This is exactly what was missing...odd that Ross didn't pick this up.

 

It's such an obvious adapter to plug into...

[bigjimwilson 256]

53 minutes ago, Jilal said:

@bigjimwilson I don't know how strict the mods are in this regard, but the forum rules state that "copyrighted audio of more than 30 seconds in length cannot be uploaded onto our servers and saved as an attachment to your post."

 

 

Eeek. Didn’t even stop to think. Sorry mods. Let me know if I’m in trouble and I’ll remove it. I’ll sit in the corner, drink the blood of Kali and think about what I’ve done. 

[GerateWohl 4,370]

Three more remarks on the score from the album. Even though everyone calls Helena's Theme "Golden Age" style, I think epecially in the tracks "To Moroko" and "To Athens" it reminds me in style somehow on some 50s or 60s Henry Mancini style music or how for example Williams treated main themes in his 50s comedy scores like the Penelopé theme for example. So, after all it doesn't feel that golden age anymore to me.

 

Secondly, this is a score with, even on album, a lot of quotes, not only of prominent themes from past films but even quotes from the background/action music. Therefore#, it really feels a little temp tracky at times. Anybody else the impression?

 

Third, it is great and I love it!!!

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Only the concert piece feels golden age, and it doesn't really fit with the rest of the score for me. I just ignore ASM's version - it doesn't fit at all in an Indy score album but I'd only be against including it if it were taking the place of a score cue.

[TolkienSS 407]

In my opinion, and I'll surely get crucified for it, John Williams may have written a complete score for a version of this film - but in the final cut, I think a conservative guess of 20% is either not completely written by Williams, but arranged by someone else, or out of place, or both.

 

I have no proof whatsoever of this, but that's what it sounds like to me.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Don't the film's credits have to mention anyone who helped arrange or provided additional music?

 

Given the rumpus when it was discovered the potential extent of Sener's work in Powell's recent scores, I can only imagine the toys exiting prams if it were found that John Williams didn't write or arrange an entire Indy score aged 90...

 

But a simpler explanation is probably just issue #4000 of 'weird Williams album assemblies' where no one can quite work out which storytelling methodology he chose this time.

[Remco 685]

1 minute ago, Richard Penna said:

Don't the film's credits have to mention anyone who helped arrange or provided additional music?

 

Given the rumpus when it was discovered the potential extent of Sener's work in Powell's recent scores, I can only imagine the toys exiting prams if it were found that John Williams didn't write or arrange an entire Indy score aged 90...

To the best of my knowledge, JW has never had an ‘additional music by…’ credit. William Ross is credited as ‘orchestrator’ which is kind of an odd description given JW doesn’t use orchestrators anymore (in the traditional sense).

 

My best guess is that JW assigned certain spots to Ross where old music had to be adapted and Ross did exactly that. Same as with the sequel trilogy. Note: truly re-used music, not temp-track rewrites like the Tintin piece and Spyders. I’m sure JW did these himself.

 

Not unlike Chamber of Secrets, but on a smaller scale.

[Jay 37,369]

2 hours ago, JWilliamsFan1999 said:

 

I recommend this podcast to everyone here in the John Williams forum. Great podcast that gives a pretty good analysis of John Williams's entire career. Just released a new episode on the score of Indiana Jones And The Dial Of Destiny.

 

The host of the podcast is a member here

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/29153-new-podcast-the-baton-a-john-williams-musical-journey

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

9 hours ago, bigjimwilson said:

Eeek. Didn’t even stop to think. Sorry mods. Let me know if I’m in trouble and I’ll remove it. I’ll sit in the corner, drink the blood of Kali and think about what I’ve done. 

 

"Think"?

 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

http://sndup.net/sk85

 

I did my own version of a credits suite as well (please delete if not allowed). I used the following:

 

- Raiders March - New York, 1969 from DoD (I quite like the robust performance of this, but I pitched it up a semitone which sped it up, and it's much better faster IMO)

- Raiders March from KotCS for a short transition

- End Credits from TLC for a short transition

- Prologue to Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny - pretty much the entire track minus the short intro

- The last big statement of Helena's Theme, using the Marion's Theme quote to transition back into the Raiders March

- Raiders March from KotCS again, to finish it off. I tried to bring back the recording from DoD but the arrangement, key and tempo made it too difficult. 

 

It's a very satisfying listen, though truth be told I actually quite like the theme suite being at the beginning of the album - it makes sense as an overture and really sets you up for all the themes throughout.

 

[p0llux 398]

19 hours ago, bigjimwilson said:

This is great!

I've been thinking about trying to achieve something similar, but putting Helena back at the end along with this little transition......  

 

 

Very good, i considered this, but the full theme already played so I didn't wanna reprise it again.....ok you know what? I'm gonna take another stab at it. I pride myself at sound editing and near seamless transitions. I'm gonna make a THIRD end credits suite(technically a fourth, I secretly created one that combined the ASM version of Helena's theme and the concert version, and it's a fantastic listening experience). BTW if any of you actually listened to my arrangements, I used parts of the Raider's March from all previous films. It's the end credits of end credits.

 

I'll report back when I'm done.

[Martinland 360]

On 11/07/2023 at 2:07 PM, BB-8 said:

 

I was happy to read at the very end (after the music) that the German voice for Harrison Ford hasn't changed since Star Wars Episode IV...1978!

Yes, very nice - I even checked for that before watching the dubbed version with my father ... nice childhood memories...

 

On 12/07/2023 at 10:27 AM, Richard Penna said:

It's not John Williams in concert.

It was for me, thrice so far. <3

[Tydirium 1,167]

On 12/7/2023 at 6:38 AM, bigjimwilson said:

This is great!

I've been thinking about trying to achieve something similar, but putting Helena back at the end along with this little transition......  

 

I’ve been imagining something like this since I first heard the theme last year! I love how the ascending horn triplets naturally lead into the cello sixteenth notes!

[Gurkensalat 340]

12 hours ago, p0llux said:

 

Very good, i considered this, but the full theme already played so I didn't wanna reprise it again.....ok you know what? I'm gonna take another stab at it. I pride myself at sound editing and near seamless transitions. I'm gonna make a THIRD end credits suite(technically a fourth, I secretly created one that combined the ASM version of Helena's theme and the concert version, and it's a fantastic listening experience). BTW if any of you actually listened to my arrangements, I used parts of the Raider's March from all previous films. It's the end credits of end credits.

 

I'll report back when I'm done.

 

Thank you for your work, I like the last version very much! Perhaps you could consider to offer it as a download also (outside of this forum, of course), so one could integrate it into a playlist.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I really like how JW develops the Nazi theme throughout the movie, culminating  in the The Spark-esque event cue The Airport.  It feels like Williams wrote it with that scene in mind and then worked backwards.  

[D_A_R_T_H 24]

is anyone working on a "Cue-by-Cue Breakdown"  of the complete score ? 

[BB-8 3,479]

37 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

I really like how JW develops the Nazi theme throughout the movie, culminating  in the The Spark-esque event cue The Airport.  It feels like Williams wrote it with that scene in mind and then worked backwards.  

I like those dramatic pauses between the forward driving theme segments.

[Edmilson 7,466]

1 hour ago, D_A_R_T_H said:

is anyone working on a "Cue-by-Cue Breakdown"  of the complete score ? 

I'd like to know that too. Can't wait to do the math to find out how much music is missing from the OST!

[p0llux 398]

 

Ok, by popular demand, it's done. This is the longest end credits ever. These turning into The Indiana Jones Symphonic Poem. This edit was actually easier than the other ones I did. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Most cues ends quietly so it was easy to just paste in the next piece of music.

 

Notes: 

-Raider's March was pieced together using end credit excerpts from all previous films.

-Moved Prologue up.
-Moved Helena's Theme towards the end.
-Added Marion's Theme transition from Helena's Theme to Raider's March. 15:59

[aviazn 273]

Finally saw the film. My contribution to the Helena's theme discourse is that Williams does seem intentional these days about his themes for female characters and making them less male gaze-y, which undoubtedly many of the older themes are. Maybe that's partly a response to characters these days being written less so, but maybe it's also his own "reconstruction in the gender age," as he put it. I mean, he's talked about how he wrote Leia's concert arrangement as mickey-mousing Luke and Leia boning. And how he wrote Rey's theme as a theme not for a love interest but a "female adventuress."

 

Like @GerateWohl I also got comedy vibes from Helena's theme in the film, but kinda like something you'd find in a 1930s screwball comedy. In its bouncy, upbeat statements like in To Athens, it reminded me of the arrangement of I Can't Give You Anything But Love at the end of Bringing Up Baby. And there is something of the screwball-era banter and gender-role subversion to Helena's character. To me, the theme fits like a glove.

 

I think the ASM arrangement of Helena's theme is just that, an arrangement for her that gives it a more romantic treatment for solo violin.