King Mark 3,631 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 I think it's an above average theme and better than a lot of the themes in the movies. But that applies to the more "dramatic" live concert version not the watered down TV version Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amer 2,109 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 51 minutes ago, Darth Mixolydian said: Love the new theme. Always wonderful to have new JW music. I do have to ask a question that I feel others in this forum must have wondered too. When introducing the new piece, Kennedy says something along the lines of "can you believe there's never been an Obi-wan theme before? How can this be!?" Of course we know that The Force theme used to be Kenobi's theme in the first movie, but as the series evolved, that theme became connected to the force in general rather than just Kenobi. Same thing for Luke's theme becoming the Main Theme when utilized in the prequels and beyond. So I can't be the only one who finds it demeaning to JW's work over the years when people in high positions at Lucasfilm say this. It almost comes off as a "hey John! You forgot a theme for Obi-wan, duh!!" Has no one explained this to Kennedy? Is she scratching her head about where Luke's theme is too? Or does she know and is simply trying to find the lowest common denominator message for the masses in a speech like this? If the latter is the case, why not use the opportunity to introduce the fans that don't know to this very cool story about the music? Simply say, "In the first Star Wars, John wrote an extraordinary theme for Obi-Wan. Over the years that theme grew into a broader theme for the series, representing The Force, and it remains one of the most recognizable pieces of music in cinema history. For this new series we wanted a fresh theme for Obi-Wan, connected to the unique challenges this beloved character faces in this thrilling tale." I know, I know, we're in the minority of the public here, but I feel like fans would appreciate the added knowledge instead of this messaging that JW "forgot" to give Obi-Wan a theme for 45 years until he was asked. I kinda felt it was a Theme for John Williams himself than Obi Wan. Both are Old, wise and have seen so much. I think it goes both ways if you look at it. Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 IF they released the concert version he recorded a while back, when would be the time to do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted May 27, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 27, 2022 1 minute ago, King Mark said: IF they released the concert version he recorded a while back, when would be the time to do it? Now https://open.spotify.com/track/0UvXARxghc7E5grZSpGArl?si=J4unb5qUSHaLGy0RJD-PiA&utm_source=copy-link eitam, Bofur01, Tiburon and 6 others 1 3 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handz 39 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 3 minutes ago, Sergeant said: Flaccid theme? I think it was a highlight in Berlin concert. Powell' score is a joke, can't listen to that generic shit. The theme is actually quite nice, it has great energy and flow. Not JWs best but i like to listen to it. With Powell, well, its mixed bag some of his tunes are absolutely amazing some are ruined by the overuse of drums and percussions which I always find a lame way to make a rythm for orchestral piece instead of using interesting orchestration / ostinatos. I am not afraid to say that "Lando's Closet" is one of the best love themes made for a movie in past 20 years. It is absolutely gorgeous. Mine mission is great too. What I really dont like is the second part of "Flying with Chewie" which is everything wrong with Powells music, sounds naive, for kids and annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Will 2,215 Posted May 27, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 27, 2022 WOW! On YouTube now too: crumbs, Disco Stu, King Mark and 3 others 3 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ludwig 1,120 Posted May 27, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 27, 2022 47 minutes ago, Falstaft said: (I am curious if anyone hears these passages, or even the whole piece, in 12/8 instead of 4/4?) Yes! I would say that it's almost certainly in 12/8 rather than 4/4, at least after the horn solo intro (and maybe not including the contrasting middle section). The reason I say that is that Williams seems to write in slowish compound meters when he's expressing something to do with sorrow, which certainly fits the bill here, but there's also Jedi Steps (12/8), Across the Stars (9/8), and even things like the main themes for Angela's Ashes (mostly 12/8) and the Book Thief (6/8), etc. And while we're talking about these ostinato figures, I'll say that one thing I think is quite different from many of his other film concert pieces is that this one is very tightly based on the descending half steps found naturally in the minor scale (on degrees 6-5 and 3-2). When I heard the second and third notes of the theme's melody, I thought it was simply an appropriate expression of sounding forlorn with the 3-2 scale notes. Then it happened again in the 3rd bar (on the triplet). Then I noticed that he also uses the 6-5 notes as the high notes of the theme in those first four bars. And in those funny inverted chords in the second statements of the theme, we get the bass notes of the chords as Eb-D-C-D, again playing around with 3-2. Then I heard the cadence and I was like, cool, 6-5 in the bass for a really grief-stricken sound. Then every time these ostinatos came in, I felt the composition was getting increasingly motivically tight. And I can't help but think that his intensive work for the concert hall in the past few years has made its mark in this theme, as this kind of knitting together of a piece through a repeated scale degree figure (and not even one tied to a certain rhythm) is a hallmark of more classical concert works. Normally, I wouldn't think too much of finding this or that scale degree figure, but it's foregrounded for us right in the first bar of the melody so it inhabits even the most obvious of places! Falstaft, Cerebral Cortex, Mattris and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lost Folio 183 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 43 minutes ago, Falstaft said: (I am curious if anyone hears these passages, or even the whole piece, in 12/8 instead of 4/4?) I definitely hear the ostinato in compound time -- and most of the piece as well. I've tried checking the videos for any signs that JW would be conducting in 4/4 or 12/8, but that's not very conclusive! He seems to subdivide some of the beats in 3, but he might as well just be marking each note regardless of the measure. Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 2 hours ago, Darth Mixolydian said: When introducing the new piece, Kennedy says something along the lines of "can you believe there's never been an Obi-wan theme before? How can this be!?" So I can't be the only one who finds it demeaning to JW's work over the years when people in high positions at Lucasfilm say this. It almost comes off as a "hey John! You forgot a theme for Obi-wan, duh!!" Has no one explained this to Kennedy? Is she scratching her head about where Luke's theme is too? Or does she know and is simply trying to find the lowest common denominator message for the masses in a speech like this? If the latter is the case, why not use the opportunity to introduce the fans that don't know to this very cool story about the music? Simply say, "In the first Star Wars, John wrote an extraordinary theme for Obi-Wan. Over the years that theme grew into a broader theme for the series, representing The Force, and it remains one of the most recognizable pieces of music in cinema history. For this new series we wanted a fresh theme for Obi-Wan, connected to the unique challenges this beloved character faces in this thrilling tale." I know, I know, we're in the minority of the public here, but I feel like fans would appreciate the added knowledge instead of this messaging that JW "forgot" to give Obi-Wan a theme for 45 years until he was asked. Even if Kennedy knew that The Force Theme was also Ben's Theme in the original SW, I don't think she would want to contradict what Williams himself repeatedly said in recent interviews. Same with the "first love theme" thing for Ep.2. Williams' word shall remain sacred to those who hire him! Brando and Docteur Qui 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 2 hours ago, Darth Mixolydian said: Love the new theme. Always wonderful to have new JW music. I do have to ask a question that I feel others in this forum must have wondered too. When introducing the new piece, Kennedy says something along the lines of "can you believe there's never been an Obi-wan theme before? How can this be!?" Of course we know that The Force theme used to be Kenobi's theme in the first movie, but as the series evolved, that theme became connected to the force in general rather than just Kenobi. Same thing for Luke's theme becoming the Main Theme when utilized in the prequels and beyond. So I can't be the only one who finds it demeaning to JW's work over the years when people in high positions at Lucasfilm say this. It almost comes off as a "hey John! You forgot a theme for Obi-wan, duh!!" Has no one explained this to Kennedy? Is she scratching her head about where Luke's theme is too? Or does she know and is simply trying to find the lowest common denominator message for the masses in a speech like this? If the latter is the case, why not use the opportunity to introduce the fans that don't know to this very cool story about the music? Simply say, "In the first Star Wars, John wrote an extraordinary theme for Obi-Wan. Over the years that theme grew into a broader theme for the series, representing The Force, and it remains one of the most recognizable pieces of music in cinema history. For this new series we wanted a fresh theme for Obi-Wan, connected to the unique challenges this beloved character faces in this thrilling tale." I know, I know, we're in the minority of the public here, but I feel like fans would appreciate the added knowledge instead of this messaging that JW "forgot" to give Obi-Wan a theme for 45 years until he was asked. Not to forget it's the first love theme of the franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,369 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 Just listened to it again and realised, that, what I find quite unusual, the theme has no B-section or another part. It is this short melody, maybe 4 or six bars, and that gets repeated and varied. Even March of the Resistance had some kind of B-part. This one doesn't. And somehow it sounds related to Battle of Heroes a little bit. Or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,843 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 1 hour ago, GerateWohl said: Just listened to it again and realised, that, what I find quite unusual, the theme has no B-section or another part. It is this short melody, maybe 4 or six bars, and that gets repeated and varied. Even March of the Resistance had some kind of B-part. This one doesn't. And somehow it sounds related to Battle of Heroes a little bit. Or not? Yeah, the lack of a noticable b-part makes the theme feel slight. I do think it is a minor Star Wars theme, it sounds like what would have happened in any of the minor new themes like Rose's theme or the Luke in Exile theme received their own concert arrangement. Not enough meat on that bone to make a full-fat concert piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,513 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 If it had a B-part, there would be complaints that Williams only ever composes this way. I like that he went for something with a "longer line" for a change. He knew how to make a build-up within a single mood, and as a result 3:19 sounds quite powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tom 4,658 Posted May 27, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 27, 2022 I think the ostinato, while not a full on B theme, provides the same role and does it effectively. Andy, MikeH, DarthDementous and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,513 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 Touché. But while the ostinato offers variety, it preserves and contributes to the unabashedly serious and dramatic mood. Rebellion is Reborn is a nice contrasting piece where that is not the case. artguy360 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Cerebral Cortex 3,357 Posted May 28, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 28, 2022 Really enjoy the piece a lot, and I also think it's gonna continue to be a grower. I feel like it doubles well as a theme for the Jedi in general, and pairs nicely with the Force theme as far as musical pieces that draw upon the more mythical quality of this universe; the distinction being that while the Force theme creates those feelings from an almost divine perspective, the Kenobi theme approaches it more agnostically. In another universe, I feel like Williams could have used this as a theme for Camelot in a film revolving around the Arthur legend. The piece definitely evokes that feeling of looking upon "something obsolete that was once great (and could be again)," and it genuinely blows my mind how someone can be so gifted in something like musical composition such that they're able to conjure up such a niche and specific feeling so concisely. DarthDementous, Amer, Andy and 6 others 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stravinsky 206 Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 18 hours ago, Sergeant said: Not Mr. Big and Joni Wiljami 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tydirium 1,167 Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 On 26/5/2022 at 5:30 PM, ragoz350 said: Yea, this 1-3-2-5 motif (grown out of Ludlow's demise) is now becoming a kind of JW's version of DSCH And it's remarkable that both the themes from sequels and Obi's begin with this motif, a seed for new musical ideas... Yep, and it's one of my favorite things ever. Didn't realize until just the other day that Qui-Gon's theme from TPM is another example of it: 5-1-3-2-5. DarthDementous, ragoz350 and BrotherSound 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragoz350 450 Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Tydirium said: Yep, and it's one of my favorite things ever. Didn't realize until just the other day that Qui-Gon's theme from TPM is another example of it: 5-1-3-2-5. Hmm, this (accidental) connection is interesting from a plot point of view as well. Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,843 Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 To me this theme is really a tone setting piece more than anything. MikeH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,482 Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 I'm going to start the 3rd Day of the Live Celebration (with a little delay!), still hoping to see JW's performance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattris 416 Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 10 hours ago, ragoz350 said: Hmm, this (accidental) connection is interesting from a plot point of view as well. Wow, John Williams' Star Wars themes are bursting with 'happy accidents'... certainly not composer intended! Chewy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 So what's the best sounding video/recording of the live debut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,482 Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 The one not broadcasted yet. Day 4 of the celebration starts at 3 PM for me this afternoon. I'm still having the faith! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 yeah I really hope there's somekind of professional recording they'll show. It's a shame only having these cell phone recordings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bespin 8,482 Posted May 29, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 29, 2022 Does anybody have a good quality video (with the music) of Harrison Ford's colonoscopy he passed in 2016? Brando, Mattris, ThePenitentMan1 and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 Ok but what's the best sounding cell phone recording, I didn't bookmark any of these and I don't really want to read back through this whole thread . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,013 Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 I am just reading the last couple of posts. Cell phone recording...of colonoscopy? Wha? Karol Disco Stu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 3 hours ago, Bespin said: Does anybody have a good quality video (with the music) of Harrison Ford's colonocopy he passed in 2016? You can have mine from last year if you like! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,482 Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 I pass thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brando 1,863 Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 1 hour ago, crocodile said: I am just reading the last couple of posts. Cell phone recording...of colonoscopy? Wha? Karol Have you not heard Ford's little anecdote about going in for a colonoscopy? According to him they were playing the 'Raiders March' when he went in. I hope to God its a true story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 With the apparent bad temper of mr ford i really hope it isnt…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brando 1,863 Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 Idk if it really ticked him off I feel like the story would go to the grave with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted May 29, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 29, 2022 I'm gone for a few days, and Williams does a surprise premiere… I only got around to play it now. I like it, although the initial impression is that it doesn't seem as refined as it could be, perhaps because Williams didn't have much time to write it, or because of the restrictions of how much you can do in a present day series main title (if the concert version is close enough to that; I haven't seen the show yet). It does sound like a fitting composition for that, i.e. a a short cue that sets a specific mood without making the whole title sequence basically a music video for "the big theme" (like TV shows used to do in the last millennium). On 26/05/2022 at 9:53 PM, BrotherSound said: Strong Bruckner influence here, eh, @Falstaft? (A composer I hadn’t really thought of in connection with JW before, until Frank pointed out the influence on some other more recent Star Wars music.) Interesting. I thought I was the only one going on about Williams's surprising Bruckner touches in (very select moments in) the ST. I don't know if I would have made the connection myself in this case, but with the Wagnerian turn of the second phrase of the theme and the ostinato, I guess there might be something there. On the other hand, the ostinato almost sounds like Wagner's own upside down riding motif. Tom, BrotherSound, MaxTheHouseelf and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherSound 2,242 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 1 hour ago, Marian Schedenig said: Interesting. I thought I was the only one going on about Williams's surprising Bruckner touches in (very select moments in) the ST. I don't know if I would have made the connection myself in this case, but with the Wagnerian turn of the second phrase of the theme and the ostinato, I guess there might be something there. To my ears, the opening of Bruckner’s 4th Symphony is a likely model—conscious or not—for the opening of the Obi-Wan theme arrangement, both sharing hushed string tremolos and wide-ranging horn solos at a fairly slow tempo: Definitely, along with Across the Stars, one of the most strongly 19th-century Romantic of the Star Wars concert arrangements. BB-8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Quppa 117 Posted May 30, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 30, 2022 Brett Mitchell has already done a nice piano cover. The connections to the Force Theme stand out to me in this arrangement. BrotherSound, BB-8 and Disco Stu 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB-8 3,478 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 8 hours ago, BrotherSound said: To my ears, the opening of Bruckner’s 4th Symphony is a likely model—conscious or not—for the opening of the Obi-Wan theme arrangement, both sharing hushed string tremolos and wide-ranging horn solos at a fairly slow tempo: Definitely, along with Across the Stars, one of the most strongly 19th-century Romantic of the Star Wars concert arrangements. 8 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said: I'm gone for a few days, and Williams does a surprise premiere… I only got around to play it now. I like it, although the initial impression is that it doesn't seem as refined as it could be, perhaps because Williams didn't have much time to write it, or because of the restrictions of how much you can do in a present day series main title (if the concert version is close enough to that; I haven't seen the show yet). It does sound like a fitting composition for that, i.e. a a short cue that sets a specific mood without making the whole title sequence basically a music video for "the big theme" (like TV shows used to do in the last millennium). Interesting. I thought I was the only one going on about Williams's surprising Bruckner touches in (very select moments in) the ST. I don't know if I would have made the connection myself in this case, but with the Wagnerian turn of the second phrase of the theme and the ostinato, I guess there might be something there. On the other hand, the ostinato almost sounds like Wagner's own upside down riding motif. BrotherSound 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 Why is there a gazillion threads for this piece? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB-8 3,478 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 Chen G. and michael_grig 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 I really don't hear much resemblence to Siegfried. michael_grig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB-8 3,478 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 8 minutes ago, Chen G. said: I really don't hear much resemblence to Siegfried. And Bruckner? BrotherSound and Chen G. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 1 hour ago, BB-8 said: Wow, triplets that are all playing the horn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB-8 3,478 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 Horn Solo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 1 hour ago, BB-8 said: There is one wrong note in that opening solo. Coming down from high C(concert pitch) third note( eighth note) should be A, not Bb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB-8 3,478 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 10 hours ago, BB-8 said: Well, obviously, but those associations have been there since the day Williams employed heroic fifths in Star Wars. I don't think you necessarily need to draw further intentional or semi-intentional inspiration from the Ring to end up with further similarities, simply by developing what you already have. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 Yeah. Williams took the structural idea from Wagner (and, I'd say, not directly but rather via Wagnerian film composers of the previous generation) but his music doesn't have a particularly "Wagnerian" sound, especially not the Ring sound. BB-8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 18 hours ago, BrotherSound said: To my ears, the opening of Bruckner’s 4th Symphony is a likely model—conscious or not—for the opening of the Obi-Wan theme arrangement, both sharing hushed string tremolos and wide-ranging horn solos at a fairly slow tempo: That opening is so distinctive, and so deeply ingrained in my musical mind, I don't think I've ever heard something else that directly reminded me of it. That hyper mysterious string tremolo and the combination with the solo horn is utterly unique in my brain. Funnily enough, a musician friend of mine says he can never hear the Kings Row similarity in the Star Wars main titles because that same passage reminds him too much of the Bruckner bit at 2:07 in the Solti recording above. I never made the connection, and my mind never makes the reference on its own, but it's probably a closer (and equally unintentional) fit than the much cited Korngold plagiarism. BrotherSound and BB-8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB-8 3,478 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 12 hours ago, Chen G. said: Yeah. Williams took the structural idea from Wagner (and, I'd say, not directly but rather via Wagnerian film composers of the previous generation) but his music doesn't have a particularly "Wagnerian" sound, especially not the Ring sound. I agree, the vintage Star Wars style is closer to Holst, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, and Elgar. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB-8 3,478 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 On 27/05/2022 at 3:44 AM, blondheim said: The first chord sounds so much like the first notes of Mahler's 2nd or am I crazy? I think it is even closer to the beginning of Mahler's "Der Spielmann" from "Das Klagende Lied" - the way suspense is generated by the string tremolo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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