John Williams’ First and Last Great Score

[JTN 2,030]

In your opinion what was the Maestro’s first truly great score?

And what was his last masterpiece?

[QuartalHarmony 543]

Wow, this thread could get end up escalating fast…

 

I’ll open the bidding with Jaws and HP1. I’m basing that largely on the degree to which a score permeates the wider public consciousness beyond the original film but, obviously, there are many ways to measure greatness and whether the cloth-eared general public (as opposed to discerning cognoscenti like us) like a score is, possibly, neither here nor there.
 

Very happy to read other opinions!

 

Mark

[GerateWohl 4,370]

The last one is easy: Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny 

 

The first one is trickier. I personally find his 60s comedy scores partly great. But in the sense of a really great score, hm, maybe The Cowboys? Don't know.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

Fitzwilly 

 

Dial of Destiny 

[Tom 4,661]

5 hours ago, QuartalHarmony said:

Wow, this thread could get end up escalating fast…

 

Why do you think that?  We are a civilized bunch.

 

Hey JTW, to answer the question on JW's first and last great score, I called your mom....

 

To answer, the first is tough, but something about How to Steal a Million seems great.  And, yes, DoD, particularly the third act, is great.  Neither of these is a masterpiece, though. For the latter category, I would go a bit more mundane and say Jaws and AI.   

[QuartalHarmony 543]

2 hours ago, Tom said:

We are a civilized bunch.

…in possession of some strongly held opinions!

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

2 hours ago, Tom said:

We are a civilized bunch.  

I wonder how long we'd survive in a 'Lord of the Flies' island setting...

 

We'd be wrestling the conch shell away from each other to argue which score or movie was "the best."

[Datameister 2,044]

My gut reaction is Jaws / TFA. But of course, it's all a continuum. On a more generous day I might say The Cowboys / TFA; on a less generous day I might say Star Wars / ROTS.

 

If we're talking about how much a score gets into the public consciousness, on the other hand, I'm with @QuartalHarmony.

[BB-8 3,478]

Heidi

BFG

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Star Wars and Potter 1.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

Jane Eyre

Revenge of the Sith

[Sandor 797]

Jane Eyre

War Horse

[Damien F 1,742]

Jane Eyre

The Force Awakens

[CompleteRecordingSessions 43]

Daddy-O

Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny

[filmmusic 1,829]

Star Wars/Close Encounters of the third kind

The Adventures of Tintin/War Horse

 

[Edmilson 7,466]

John Williams' first great score: Daddy-O

John Williams' last great score: Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny.

 

Close the thread! 

[Toillion 215]

How to steal a million

Star Wars XII

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

Title should be "first and latest"

[oierem 152]

Jane Eyre and The Force Awakens, I would say. 

 

I don't think TLJ and ROS are great as a whole (though they have great highlights of course).

The Post and The Fabelmans are too small to be considered great (although I love the simplicity and the beauty of the two themes from the Fablemans). 

And Indy 5 has great themes, but is a very uneven score because of the copy-pasting. 

[mrbellamy 6,287]

I think the earliest I would personally go is Jane Eyre and the latest is The Force Awakens.

 

I don't know the 60s stuff well enough to really argue their greatness though I have heard a bunch and have my favorites. I dig Checkmate most, I can appreciate there are consensus picks like How to Steal a Million or The Reivers, but Jane Eyre is the earliest to really hit me in the John Williams. 

 

2001 with AI or Harry Potter feels like the furthest back anybody could go for their latest pick before I'd give them the stink eye. Prisoner of Azkaban still feels like my most recent benchmark for everything I want from a Williams score, at least on that scale, while I would say Force Awakens is the latest to compel me as an overall piece, rather than just enjoying the many highlights. 

[Andy 4,138]

First Truly Great Score - How to Steal a Million

 

First Masterpiece - Jaws

 

Last Truly Great Score - Dial of Destiny

 

Last Masterpiece - this is tough. I mean, the word Masterpiece… either conservatively Temple of Doom , or more generously, Hook. 

[mrbellamy 6,287]

I mean that's where the designations start getting silly to me. Hook only feels like his last masterpiece to me in the sense that it's the last great score of a certain approach in that particular era of his career. But even then I don't know if that's true.

 

I could accept that Jaws to Schindler's List is the essential period and what will be most remembered as the heart of his legacy. Original Star Wars trilogy and the meat of his collaborations with Spielberg. That may be an outdated way of looking at it, but I would say that's his complete ascension to GOAT status, pretty much concurrent with Spielberg's. They'll be forever linked in film history. 

[Marian Schedenig 8,199]

5 hours ago, Datameister said:

My gut reaction is Jaws / TFA. But of course, it's all a continuum. On a more generous day I might say The Cowboys / TFA

 

Those were the three that came to my mind. But Jane Eyre came earlier, so it must be that. Unless we count Heidi - I wouldn't rate the full score *that* highly, but The Miracle may be enough to qualify.

[King Mark 3,631]

First :Lost in Space

Last: Rise of Skywalker

[TolkienSS 407]

4 hours ago, Sandor said:

Jane Eyre

War Horse

 

Yup.

 

"Tell me you're an anti without telling me you're an anti"

"Dial Of Destiny is a masterpiece"

[Datameister 2,044]

32 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Those were the three that came to my mind. But Jane Eyre came earlier, so it must be that. Unless we count Heidi - I wouldn't rate the full score *that* highly, but The Miracle may be enough to qualify.

 

In all fairness, I have close to zero familiarity with Jane Eyre, so it's possible I might agree with you once properly educated. 😊

[pete 907]

7 hours ago, King Mark said:

First :Lost in Space

Last: Rise of Skywalker

 

That’s exactly what I was thinking! Those Lost in Space scores are such gems. I saw the show as a kid, and listened to the scores about 25 years later, and I was so surprised that the music was so familiar - and not just the two main themes. 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

6 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

I mean that's where the designations start getting silly to me. Hook only feels like his last masterpiece to me in the sense that it's the last great score of a certain approach in that particular era of his career. But even then I don't know if that's true.

He immediately followed Hook with Far and Away which is a much better score. 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

STAR WARS.

THE FABELMANS

[Bayesian 1,363]

 

Hmm...  I'm gonna go with Jane Eyre and TFA. Several folks offered TFA as his last great score and I agree. To be clear, every score JW has written since TFA has been great, but in terms of resonating with the public, TFA was indeed the latest (and probably last) one.

 

While on the topic of TFA, let us take a moment to re-appreciate what this miracle of a man was able to accomplish. First, he gives one of the most iconic movies in history perhaps the most iconic score in the history of filmmaking in 1977. That's lightning-in-a-bottle shit (and we won't even get into TESB). Then, he comes back 22 years later, the Star Wars hype machine dialed up to 11, and gives us Duel of the Fates, the Flag Parade, and Anakin's Theme (and makes it onto MTV's Total Request Live (the first and only film composer to achieve that feat) with DotF)). That's dent no. 2 in the cultural universe, and creating it is something like a World Series-winning home run with the count at 3-2. Then... jump ahead 16 years. It's time to renew Star Wars for the 21st century. Filmmaking has gone completely different by now. Blockbuster film scoring has Zimmer-fied. New director, new crop of young actors, no George Lucas... does JW have what it takes to kickstart yet another trilogy in the same culture-permeating way he did twice before? Well, doubters, Rey's Theme and March of the Resistance would like a word with you.

 

This was, and remains, a breathtakingly astounding sequence of achievements. We are fortunate to have been witness to it.

[QuartalHarmony 543]

4 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

He immediately followed Hook with Far and Away which is a much better score. 

 

Now, I’m not trying to prove my earlier point about this discussion escalating, but them’s fightin’ words.

 

(and I love F&A! But better than Hook? Come on)

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

First great score: How to Steel a Million

First absolut masterpiece: The Towering Inferno

 

Last great score: Dial of Destiny

Last absolut masterpiece: Dial of Destiny

[Chen G. 3,949]

2 hours ago, Bayesian said:

While on the topic of TFA, let us take a moment to re-appreciate what this miracle of a man was able to accomplish. First, he gives one of the most iconic movies in history perhaps the most iconic score in the history of filmmaking in 1977. That's lightning-in-a-bottle shit (and we won't even get into TESB). Then, he comes back 22 years later, the Star Wars hype machine dialed up to 11, and gives us Duel of the Fates, the Flag Parade, and Anakin's Theme (and makes it onto MTV's Total Request Live (the first and only film composer to achieve that feat) with DotF)). That's dent no. 2 in the cultural universe, and creating it is something like a World Series-winning home run with the count at 3-2. Then... jump ahead 16 years. It's time to renew Star Wars for the 21st century. Filmmaking has gone completely different by now. Blockbuster film scoring has Zimmer-fied. New director, new crop of young actors, no George Lucas... does JW have what it takes to kickstart yet another trilogy in the same culture-permeating way he did twice before? Well, doubters, Rey's Theme and March of the Resistance would like a word with you.

 

I look at this accomplishment a little differently: John Williams took one body of basic musical material, and had managed to spin out of it a yarn that extends across nine film scores, a trailer, several concert stage works, and pieces for a spinoff film, a miniseries AND an amusement park. In that sense its like the Ring cycle on steroids.

[mstrox 6,651]

Jane Eyre and TFA here also.  I like DoD a lot (and a lot more than KOTCS), but im not entirely comfortable calling that one a masterpiece until I see the movie to know the context.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

22 minutes ago, mstrox said:

im not entirely comfortable calling that one a masterpiece until I see the movie to know the context.

 

Apparently, that's not a requirement in the ongoing DoD discussions. 

[filmmusic 1,829]

(sorry, wrong thread)

[JTN 2,030]

My choices:

First Great Score: The Cowboys

(First Masterpiece: Jaws)

(Last Great Score: The Force Awakens)

Last Masterpiece: Memoirs of a Geisha

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

9 hours ago, QuartalHarmony said:

 

Now, I’m not trying to prove my earlier point about this discussion escalating, but them’s fightin’ words.

 

(and I love F&A! But better than Hook? Come on)

In general I'm not really huge on Hook as a score, despite having many great individual moments.  Maybe if they kept the songs it would have made more sense but the thematic bloat and consistently sugary tone make it hard to enjoy as a complete score.  (compared to the more thematically concise Home Alone or the more tonally and stylistically varied Sorcerer's Stone)

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

Yeah, even the OST can be too much, but I look forward to getting the expanded edition so I can discover new favourite cues.

[Andy 4,138]

16 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

He immediately followed Hook with Far and Away which is a much better score. 

There are parts of Far and Away (mostly from the second half) that I personally enjoy more than some of Hook, but I’m not sure I could say Far and Away earns masterpiece status as a whole work the way Hook does.  
 

I’m getting really granular here. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

2 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

the thematic bloat

 

Too many themes? That's a complaint I haven't heard before...

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Too many themes? That's a complaint I haven't heard before...

It muddies up the narrative.  Too many themes that basically have the same associations (Lost Boys Chase/The Banquet, Stick with Me/Hook-napped) or fulfill the same role emotionally (Childhood/Mothers)

[LB Makes Stuff 240]

I got one:

First Great is The Cowboys

Last Great is Dial of Destiny

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

On 26/12/2023 at 11:06 AM, Damien F said:

Jane Eyre

The Force Awakens

 

Anyone who starts the beginning of the range later than Jane Eyre or ends it earlier than The Force Awakens... is just wrong.

 

That said, None But the Brave is pretty damn excellent and so is this:

 

 

Yavar

 

[Thornhill 19]

First truly great score?  THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE

Last masterpiece?  HARRY POTTER AND THE PRISONER OF AZKABAN

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

I love The Poseidon Adventure. Amazing main theme. But in what universe is it more truly great than Jane Eyre before it?

 

Yavar

[Schilkeman 964]

Jane Eyre 

The Last Jedi

 

 

[QuartalHarmony 543]

5 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Too many themes? That's a complaint I haven't heard before...

 

“Just cut a few, and it’ll be perfect”

[Tom 4,661]

5 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Too many themes? That's a complaint I haven't heard before...

Well, remember how the first Matrix failed because the AI made life too enjoyable?   

[Bryant Burnette 654]

My pick for first is Checkmate, if the album counts; I can't speak to the actual scores themselves.  If the album doesn't count and we're talking actual scores only, I'll go with The Rare Breed (though I'm tempted to say the Lost In Space premiere).

 

Dial of Destiny for last, though hopefully it won't be THE last.