New details on Williams / Ross Dial Of Destiny collaboration via new LA Times article by Tim Greiving

[Richard Penna 3,694]

17 minutes ago, JTW said:

All I'm suggesting, if anything, is to start being decent and not offend those on this forum who are some of the biggest fans of John Williams and might feel hurt by their favorite film composer being accused of not having written a score they love and there is absolutely no proof that he didn't write all of it. 

 

I'd respectfully offer that if you're hurt by a suggestion that your favourite composer may not have composed an entire work, you're at that point of 'obsession' that you suggested a little while back. It seems better to me to use fandom as a way of finding music you love, and not obsessing over exactly who wrote something.

 

And in this case, of course no one has any proof of anything. All we've got is essentially a confirmation that Ross composed score material, and the possibility that we're hearing score composed by him in the film.

 

---

 

And yes, IMO TolkienSS' stance is not one I agree with. A 'mistake' would've been to agree to score the whole film out of a sense of duty/ownership, even if he felt he wasn't up to it. And that's not what he did. Clearly he ended up writing the entire thing when the schedule changed. I may not be its biggest fan but it's still a good score.

[Tom 4,664]

Given the articles discussion on the Airport being a late rewrite, I think part of why the Airport, Battle, and Centuries Join Hands sound so freaking good together is because Williams actually had a nearly locked edit to work with.  Listening to these them just now, I have to say they blow away any 10 minute stretch of scoring by anyone in the last couple of years.  

[JTN 2,030]

13 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 if you're hurt by a suggestion that your favourite composer may not have composed an entire work

I'm not. Those who got offended by what @TolkienSSwrote, are.

[TolkienSS 407]

30 minutes ago, JTW said:

All I'm suggesting, if anything, is to start being decent and not offend those on this forum who are some of the biggest fans of John Williams and might feel hurt by their favorite film composer being accused of not having written a score they love and there is absolutely no proof that he didn't write all of it. 

 

It's offensive to ask if Williams wrote and recorded cues taken from previous films or if it's adapted by Ross?

That's ridiculous.

And you know it.

These cues exist. And it's not offensive to speculate about their backstory. Everyone does it on any other score, it's not taboo just because it's John Williams. 

 

If someone says he can rule out that some of it is Ross providing tracked cues, with the absurdly chaotic production this film had, I call BS.

 

How often do you think Williams rewrote and rerecorded the score to a new edit?

 

NOBODY said "Williams didn't write the score" WTF?

 

[Bellosh 3,419]

25 minutes ago, Tom said:

Given the articles discussion on the Airport being a late rewrite, I think part of why the Airport, Battle, and Centuries Join Hands sound so freaking good together is because Williams actually had a nearly locked edit to work with.  Listening to these them just now, I have to say they blow away any 10 minute stretch of scoring by anyone in the last couple of years.  

 

not to mention ----- it's the best part of the film (to me)....Johnny was probably finally inspired by SOMETHING in these sequels

[Damien F 1,742]

16 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

 

not to mention ----- it's the best part of the film (to me)....Johnny was probably finally inspired by SOMETHING in these sequels

 

Ha, that's a good point. I suppose after viewing TROS, we should be grateful that JW didn't just say "I'm too old for this shit" and walk out.

[Bellosh 3,419]

1 hour ago, Damien F said:

 

Ha, that's a good point. I suppose after viewing TROS, we should be grateful that JW didn't just say "I'm too old for this shit" and walk out.

 

seriously, he was probably like,

 

wait....i can finally put in a bombastic rendition of Helenas theme??? ooookay!.....

 

oookay!!! you want old school battle music??!?!?? ooookay!!!!!!

 

wait i can do expand on Archimedes theme cause we're gonna see him?!?!?? 

 

[Tom 4,664]

29 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

it's not taboo just because it's John Williams. 

 

 

I have a taboo of John Williams.  The problem is that it never seems socially acceptable to let people see it.  

[JTN 2,030]

30 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

It's offensive to ask if Williams wrote and recorded cues taken from previous films or if it's adapted by Ross?

That's ridiculous.

And you know it.

These cues exist. And it's not offensive to speculate about their backstory. Everyone does it on any other score, it's not taboo just because it's John Williams. 

 

If someone says he can rule out that some of it is Ross providing tracked cues, with the absurdly chaotic production this film had, I call BS.

 

How often do you think Williams rewrote and rerecorded the score to a new edit?

 

NOBODY said "Williams didn't write the score" WTF?

 

Hey buddy, I’m not your enemy here. I tried to defend you against those who got offended by what you wrote about Williams not writing the entire DoD score. So please don’t make me the bad guy, OK? Thanks.  ✌🏻

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

have a taboo of John Williams. 

You mean a tattoo? Because I don’t want to see it. :-)

[Schilkeman 964]

1 hour ago, TolkienSS said:

These cues exist.

Which ones? Where? Please provide examples, because all we have to go on is the testimony of the people who actually made the film. You’re trying to prove a negative with haughty indignation. I would love some facts to go with it.

[Damien F 1,742]

The way I see it is that we know Ross wrote Pulse of the City because he is credited as its writer in the end credits. From that article we know that he also wrote The Airport cue that was replaced by JW's version because the protracted production afforded JW a generous time frame. For some reason, Pulse of the City wasn't replaced by a JW cue. Perhaps JW didn't have the time to write a new cue or maybe everyone involved was perfectly happy with Ross's music.

 

Based on the Pulse of the City credit for Ross in the end credits, I think it is reasonable to assume that had any more Ross composed cues remained in the final cut, they would also have been credited to Ross. I think it is also reasonable to assume that the OST was produced to only include cues composed by JW because Pulse of the City was excluded.

 

I am open to the idea that Ross arranged the material from the other movies but they are still JW compositions.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

I  got  my  copy  at  

last!!!!

[BB-8 3,479]

Is it cracked?

[GerateWohl 4,370]

Not at all.

[1977 1,743]

On 14/11/2023 at 10:03 PM, King Mark said:

script re-writes and re-shoots to make the movie less woke

?

[HunterTech 994]

Once again, I sure am glad that George Lucas himself managed to save TRoS in the edit for the final cut 

 

(We only know what the original idea for the climax was supposed to be from Mangold's mouth, and not what was initially shot. Given how much we've come to overglorify reshoots these days, I really can't imagine it being much different than what we see in the released version.)

[King Mark 3,631]

Helena steals Indy's hat and runs off with Helena's March playing!

[crumbs 14,317]

After saying "it's my turn to be Indiana Jones, grandpa!" and shooting him in the face.

[Will 2,215]

I would be rather surprised if the unreleased portion of the Tuk-Tuk chase were composed by Ross. It's probably one of my favorite cues in the entire score. Ross is undoubtedly a very talented composer, but could he really have written action music that perfectly mimics Williams' classic sound? And while it's certainly true that some bits sound very similar to "The Conveyer Belt" from AoTC, I'm not entirely convinced it's an intentional lift.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

I’m guessing it’s a mix, with Williams writing the new bars and the quotes/soundalikes being done by Ross

[Richard Penna 3,694]

On 23/11/2023 at 10:48 PM, King Mark said:

Helena steals Indy's hat and runs off with Helena's March playing!

 

I'm nervous to ask this in case it sparks off the wrong type of debate... but: why don't you like that as an ending? There clearly isn't going to be another movie with Ford, so in theory the franchise could have continued with a female lead to make things a bit different. Please don't tell me that's what your issue is.

[Tydirium 1,167]

2 hours ago, Will said:

I would be rather surprised if the unreleased portion of the Tuk-Tuk chase were composed by Ross. It's probably one of my favorite cues in the entire score. Ross is undoubtedly a very talented composer, but could he really have written action music that perfectly mimics Williams' classic sound? And while it's certainly true that some bits sound very similar to "The Conveyer Belt" from AoTC, I'm not entirely convinced it's an intentional lift.

I’m sorry, but I genuinely don’t understand how someone could not think that the “Conveyor Belt” bit is an intentional lift. The orchestration is virtually identical, with the tune in the trombone, the trumpet repeated eighth-notes (or sixteenths?) in the background, the horn offbeat interjections, and then the horns joining in on the tune at around the exact same spot they do in AOTC. It’s about as obvious as can be. Even my brother, who is not a massive film music fan like me but who does enjoy it, immediately recognized it as being an AOTC reference when I played it for him.

 

(Not saying I’m sure that Ross did it, btw; it’s entirely possible Williams did it, just like how we seem pretty sure he did the Tintin bit in “Hotel L’Atlantique.”)

[Will 2,215]

36 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

I’m sorry, but I genuinely don’t understand how someone could not think that the “Conveyor Belt” bit is an intentional lift. The orchestration is virtually identical, with the tune in the trombone, the trumpet repeated eighth-notes (or sixteenths?) in the background, and then the horns joining in at around the exact same spot they do in AOTC. It’s about as obvious as can be. Even my brother, who is not a massive film music fan like me but who does enjoy it, immediately recognized it as being an AOTC reference when I played it for him.

 

(Not saying I’m sure that Ross did it, btw; it’s entirely possible Williams did it, just like how we seem pretty sure he did the Tintin bit in “Hotel L’Atlantique.”)

 

You may well be right, though what gives me some pause is that JW's action writing often contains very strong similarities to previous scores, even in cases where I highly doubt he was intentionally copying, e.g.:

 

 

1 hour ago, Taikomochi said:

I’m guessing it’s a mix, with Williams writing the new bars and the quotes/soundalikes being done by Ross

 

This seems plausible, although I wonder if they'd actually split up a four-minute scene in this manner.

[Tydirium 1,167]

32 minutes ago, Will said:

 

You may well be right, though what gives me some pause is that JW's action writing often contains very strong similarities to previous scores, even in cases where I highly doubt he was intentionally copying, e.g.:

 

 

 

I love that motif and am always happy whenever it shows up in any of his scores! But a 5(ish)-note motif being used similarly (often in triplets on strings or brass) from score to score isn’t quite the same as this, imo. It doesn’t really matter whether he was intentionally using that motif again and again in all those different spots, or not, because that’s all it is: a motif.

 

The reason I feel this is different is that this isn’t just a motif, but rather this is a specific, unique chunk of music that starts and ends basically the same way in both cues, both melodically and orchestration-wise. It’s not just any one thing: it’s the tempo, the trombones, the trumpets, the horns, the woodwinds, the cymbal crash on the first note, the percussion hits at exactly the same spots, etc.

 

We’re not talking about just a few notes being referenced; this is multiple bars in a row where it’s like they got copy-pasted, and then some small things were tinkered with to make it different. Sort of like how the Quidditch music in COS is obviously taken from the AOTC Coruscant chase music.

 

A good comparison would be Horner; what you’re talking about with the “Ludlow” motif is akin to someone pointing out Horner’s 4-note “danger” motif. He used that motif all over the place, but it’s not the same thing as almost literally copy-pasting segments from one score to another (which I believe he was also known to do). You could have an otherwise highly original Horner score that happened to use the danger motif, because that motif was just part of his musical DNA the way the Ludlow motif may be for Williams. Which seems to be what you’re talking about. But the thing is, in addition to those cases, there would also be Horner scores where much more than the danger motif was copied/reused. Like for instance, how “Cafe Swing” from Batteries Not Included = “Basketball Swing” from Cocoon: The Return.

 

I also think it’s entirely possible that Williams is conscious of his “Ludlow” motif, and intentionally uses it just because it is something he likes. I don’t necessarily think he just coincidentally comes up with that same order of notes again and again. But even so, that’s not really the same as copy-pasting a whole chunk of AOTC music and then tinkering with the notes/rhythms to make it ever-so-slightly different, which I think is pretty obviously what happened here.

 

32 minutes ago, Will said:

This seems plausible, although I wonder if they'd actually split up a four-minute scene in this manner.

 

I actually wondered if this could be the case too. Didn’t someone say this sequence also features a piano motif from Ross’ “Pulse in the City”…? I seem to recall that.

[Falstaft 2,132]

22 hours ago, Will said:

 

You may well be right, though what gives me some pause is that JW's action writing often contains very strong similarities to previous scores, even in cases where I highly doubt he was intentionally copying, e.g.:

 

 

 

This seems plausible, although I wonder if they'd actually split up a four-minute scene in this manner.

 

I really need to update this video one of these days, with recent examples from The Post, TROS, Indy 5, some clear echoes in Nixon and Amistad, and a bunch of Ludlow variants from War Horse and WOTW I somehow missed the first time around.

 

FWIW I don't think any of the music that flagrantly sounds like other JW in Dial (namely the stuff from AOTC, MR, WOTW, and obviously all the other IJ music) is possibly  the result of unconscious stylistic consistency on Williams's part. It's either temp-track emulation or Williams farming it out to Ross ala COS. Makes sizable stretches of the score-as-heard-in-film difficult for me to listen to, to be perfectly honest, the Tuk Tuk Chase in particular.

[Tydirium 1,167]

@Falstaft Speaking of Ludlow, these two obviously both lack the triplet rhythmic drive of the other examples, but would you say that Qui-Gon’s theme and the Obi-Wan show theme might also be related to it? It occurred to me that at least 4 of the notes seem to be a match with Ludlow… For that matter, the Desperation theme from TLJ also seems to be in a similar vein. It seems like even when it’s not a textbook Ludlow variant, JW still tends to enjoy using that sequence of notes.

[Falstaft 2,132]

2 hours ago, Tydirium said:

@Falstaft Speaking of Ludlow, these two obviously both lack the triplet rhythmic drive of the other examples, but would you say that Qui-Gon’s theme and the Obi-Wan show theme might also be related to it? It occurred to me that at least 4 of the notes seem to be a match with Ludlow… For that matter, the Desperation theme from TLJ also seems to be in a similar vein. It seems like even when it’s not a textbook Ludlow variant, JW still tends to enjoy using that sequence of notes.

 

Absolutely, it's a pitch schema he uses and reuses constantly. The fact that after 20 years, Qui Gon and Obi Wan kind of ended up having the same leitmotif is on one level a coincidence--I don't know if JW really though he was giving QGJ a theme even when writing TPM! But on another level it speaks to the extreme continuity in his writing style and melodic imagination.

[oierem 152]

Having listened to the full Isolated Score, I still find some of the copy-pasted sections hard to listen to on their own: they sound jarring, and unnatural (I don't know how Williams was able to conduct some of these), and I find myself trying to identify every small segment before it jumps to another. 

I'm OK with taking an idea from a previous score and expanding it (Spiders from MR or The Duel from Tintin). I can even accept taking a big chunk from a previous score and copy-pasting it (Belly of the Steal Beast or On The Tank). But I just can't stand the almost-random usage of a couple of bars from a previous score pasted together with another couple of bars from another score (and on and on)... It doesn't sound good, it doesn't sound musical.

 

On the other hand, the score is wonderful in many other areas: the variations on Helena's theme, the new Nazi themes and, particularly, the Dial and Archimides themes are lovely, exotic and unique.

 

It's definitely a mixed bag, this one.

[Damien F 1,742]

The second park of the tuk tuk chase (the part not on the OST) is such a jumble of music from previous scores I wouldn't be surprised at all if William Ross did that part which is why it isn't on the OST.

[Tydirium 1,167]

All the strangeness about “Tuk Tuk Chase” (part 2) aside, I've gotta say that the B section of Indy’s theme that shows up towards the end of the cue is very Williams-like and downright awesome. The little offbeat woodwind/xylophone hits are on weird-enough notes to make me think it could be JW. But either way, kudos to whoever did that: I love it! Wish that bit got officially released.

[King Mark 3,631]

10 hours ago, oierem said:

Having listened to the full Isolated Score, I still find some of the copy-pasted sections hard to listen to on their own: they sound jarring, and unnatural (I don't know how Williams was able to conduct some of these), and I find myself trying to identify every small segment before it jumps to another. 

I'm OK with taking an idea from a previous score and expanding it (Spiders from MR or The Duel from Tintin). I can even accept taking a big chunk from a previous score and copy-pasting it (Belly of the Steal Beast or On The Tank). But I just can't stand the almost-random usage of a couple of bars from a previous score pasted together with another couple of bars from another score (and on and on)... It doesn't sound good, it doesn't sound musical.

 

On the other hand, the score is wonderful in many other areas: the variations on Helena's theme, the new Nazi themes and, particularly, the Dial and Archimides themes are lovely, exotic and unique.

 

It's definitely a mixed bag, this one.

yeah that's exactly how I feel. For example TukTuk Chase part 2 is kind of frustrating to listen to but a lot of the unreleased material is fantastic and elevate  the score compared to the OST (especially the last 1/2 hour of music)

[Alex 2,835]

Let’s stop calling it Tuk Tuk Chase Part 2 and start calling it its proper title, Helena On the Conveyer Belt in Venice.

[Arpy 4,145]

On 27/11/2023 at 7:35 PM, oierem said:

Having listened to the full Isolated Score, I still find some of the copy-pasted sections hard to listen to on their own: they sound jarring, and unnatural (I don't know how Williams was able to conduct some of these), and I find myself trying to identify every small segment before it jumps to another. 

I'm OK with taking an idea from a previous score and expanding it (Spiders from MR or The Duel from Tintin). I can even accept taking a big chunk from a previous score and copy-pasting it (Belly of the Steal Beast or On The Tank). But I just can't stand the almost-random usage of a couple of bars from a previous score pasted together with another couple of bars from another score (and on and on)... It doesn't sound good, it doesn't sound musical.

 

I can't tell you how my heart sunk when I heard all these other cues ripped from other scores, but the more I think over it, the more likely I think it wasn't Williams' choice; it's the editor and Mangold going through Williams' past scores and going 'right, this fits here perfectly and that's that'. 

[oierem 152]

31 minutes ago, Arpy said:

I can't tell you how my heart sunk when I heard all these other cues ripped from other scores, but the more I think over it, the more likely I think it wasn't Williams' choice; it's the editor and Mangold going through Williams' past scores and going 'right, this fits here perfectly and that's that'. 

 

Yes, but that's still baffling because it's not tracked music. It's newly recorded. Which means, once Williams / Ross is given the tempt-track, he goes through the old scores, searching for those couple of bars that the editor has chosen, which don't fit musically with anything before or after, and just copy-paste them, with slight and seemingly-random differences ("let's just add a cymbal crash for the sake of it"). The result is something almost impossible to conduct, or even play, and yet they do it. Why? Isn't is easier just to track music? 

 

Again, if those copy-pasted cues came from a single source, that would be more logical. A good example is the "Cornish Pixies" music from Chamber of Secrets. It's a copy-paste/expansion on a cue from PS. But it's musically coherent, and it works well. It's based on an existing cue, but it's adapted to the new scene. Ok, fine.

 

But a cue made up of dozens of previous cues, randomly chosen, and often just a couple of bars... I don't know, I can't imagine why they bother, because it's too complicated and the result is just not good.

[Faleel 5,355]

1 hour ago, oierem said:

 

 

But a cue made up of dozens of previous cues, randomly chosen, and often just a couple of bars... I don't know, I can't imagine why they bother, because it's too complicated and the result is just not good.

It's a throwback to the old studio days, when they would repurpose Rozsa music from previous films

[ragoz350 450]

I'd even factor in Ross' age. Chamber of Secrets was 20 years ago, now a 75-year old assistant would (at least initially) have to score almost the entire movie (!), and obviously for the sake of JW-style coherence, it would be easiest for him to quote the temp-track verbatim.

The situation could have been better if JW would have written more material right away (before re-edits), leaving Ross with less work to do...

[Alex 2,835]

2 hours ago, oierem said:

But a cue made up of dozens of previous cues, randomly chosen, and often just a couple of bars... I don't know, I can't imagine why they bother, because it's too complicated and the result is just not good.

It’s such a random situation, because they have the “On the Conveyer Belt” type music which then goes into a lovely quote of Helena’s Theme in that same style. They’ve basically copied and pasted a cue from another film, but then they’ve taken the time to adapt a cue from a film into it… which seems far more complicated.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

35 minutes ago, ragoz350 said:

I'd even factor in Ross' age. Chamber of Secrets was 20 years ago, now a 75-year old assistant would (at least initially) have to score almost the entire movie (!), and obviously for the sake of JW-style coherence, it would be easiest for him to quote the temp-track verbatim.

The situation could have been better if JW would have written more material right away (before re-edits), leaving Ross with less work to do...

Ross is clearly too old to keep up and should have retired instead of having this blemish on his career. Then JW could have written the whole score…

[scallenger 483]

2 hours ago, ragoz350 said:

I'd even factor in Ross' age. Chamber of Secrets was 20 years ago, now a 75-year old assistant would (at least initially) have to score almost the entire movie (!), and obviously for the sake of JW-style coherence, it would be easiest for him to quote the temp-track verbatim.

The situation could have been better if JW would have written more material right away (before re-edits), leaving Ross with less work to do...

 

That's why I believe someone like John Powell would have been a better choice as assistant in a role like this, which he basically already proved with Solo. Breathing new life into the work of Williams. Look at what he did for "Reminiscence Therapy" for that score. It's largely a temp track of Williams past moments, but woven in such a fresh and exciting way that it feels like it has its own flow and has fun with it.

[Tydirium 1,167]

15 minutes ago, scallenger said:

 

That's why I believe someone like John Powell would have been a better choice as assistant in a role like this, which he basically already proved with Solo. Breathing new life into the work of Williams. Look at what he did for "Reminiscence Therapy" for that score. It's largely a temp track of Williams past moments, but woven in such a fresh and exciting way that it feels like it has its own flow and has fun with it.

 

I love Powell and I love his Solo score, but I think he’s the sort of composer who’s better off doing a spinoff. I don’t need “new life” breathed into the final film of Indiana Jones; I just need something that sounds close enough to the writing in the other films. I’m fine with his writing on Solo because it’s a spinoff from the main SW saga, but I think his style (I’m mostly talking his use of percussion) would stick out like a sore thumb if he had been hired to do a main SW saga entry or a main IJ film.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Indeed

[ragoz350 450]

1 hour ago, Taikomochi said:

Ross is clearly too old to keep up and should have retired instead of having this blemish on his career. Then JW could have written the whole score…

I realize I put it poorly, I just find the comparisons to The Chamber of Secrets, which came out in 2002, odd.

 

In the case of the Obi Wan series, Ross still had more freedom, because although he got to use Williams' theme, he got to replace some of the older material first, using, roughly speaking, a more traditional orchestral approach, without the rigid tempo-tracking of JW's music.

 

In the case of the SW sequels, Ross wasn't doing as much, and he had, in any case, the (large) amount of original JW's material written for those movies.

 

In the case of DoD, however, the decision to keep John Williams as composer is important (as in SW), the style of music should be the same as in past films of a significant franchise. And I think the decision to rely heavily on a temp-track with JW's music is reasonable under these circumstances. Hiring other composers to "assist" John would have countered that decision, since the movie needs to show its cohesiveness with the previous films in every way possible.

 

But I'm glad that in such a large (and pointless) project with such strict formalities (JW's music must be there, even if it's not written by JW) we were able to get an amazing score that, though not big in length, takes its place of honor as the last major film work of composer.

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

On 20/11/2023 at 1:03 PM, Thor said:

Difficult to control these things, you know. Sometimes, you're lucky and end with a TAXI DRIVER. Other times, you're unlucky and end up with a LOONEY TUNES: BACK IN ACTION.

 

The film was certainly disappointing and not what it should have been, due to studio interference with Dante. I recommend this video essay for anyone interested to learn more:

 

And it's very unfortunate that Jerry didn't feel well enough to score the whole climatic sequence of the film. Debney's cues aren't bad but they feel like "regular film music" compared to the brilliance of Jerry's compositions for the film.

 

But I think Jerry himself felt fortunate to be working with his old friend Joe Dante one last time, and as compromised as the film is, his score shines brilliantly in it. He certainly scored much, much worse things over the course of his career. Considering his final score could have been the unused Timeline or the overall fairly dour Star Trek: Nemesis (a movie I absolutely despise rather than just finding to be a letdown), I'm personally very happy that his final work when he was dying of cancer was such a brilliant, creative, and energetic score, complete with some fun homages and in-jokes. It's got the energy of a young John Powell and IMO that's a very inspiring way for Goldsmith to take his final bow.

 

Yavar

[crocodile 8,017]

Nemesis movie might have been a disaster but the score is really good actually. I quite enjoy it.

 

Karol

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

2 hours ago, crocodile said:

Nemesis movie might have been a disaster but the score is really good actually. I quite enjoy it.

 

I agree it's very good (in fact I would say fairly underrated, thanks to the disappointing original album Varese put out which was half low key suspense scoring) but it's still the least of Goldsmith's Star Trek scores overall, in my opinion. It has the most skippable cues out of all of them, and I really blame the terrible film itself for that. It rarely allowed Jerry to let loose, but when it did (like the second half of "Odds 'n' Ends", hoo boy did Jerry kick ass. But still, I would have been sad if such an overall downbeat work for an offensively terrible movie had been Jerry Goldsmith's final film score. Looney Tunes is a much more inspiring end. I mean, can you believe a guy in his mid-70s dying of cancer wrote this incredible one-two punch of complex action gems??

 

 

 

Seriously, what a way to go out! Brilliantly channeling Carl Stalling and making it work with his own complex action style, while also recalling his heyday of scoring western films in the 60s and 70s...

 

Yavar

[Faleel 5,355]

2 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

I agree it's very good (in fact I would say fairly underrated, thanks to the disappointing original album Varese put out which was half low key suspense scoring) but it's still the least of Goldsmith's Star Trek scores overall, in my opinion.

I can't believe you forgot First Contact and Insurrection exist.

[King Mark 3,631]

Anyways I think there was a bunch of temp tracks in DOD and Williams kept old material in or he wouldn't have time to finish it. Probably due to his age he just did as much as he could before running out of time.  It does sound like it might be his last adventure score because he wouldn't be able to tackle such a project in the future.

 

I think even 2 years ago the early tracks in the score would have sounded more finished.

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

17 hours ago, Presto said:

I can't believe you forgot First Contact and Insurrection exist.

I think both of those are better than Nemesis. I really dislike both of those films but I’d rather watch them each a dozen times before subjecting myself to Nemesis again. And they just have fewer cues that bore me than Nemesis does! First Contact has a few cues that bore me, to be sure… but it also has one of Jerry’s very best themes, plus is unique and cool because his son Joel collaborated on it and contributed some truly stellar cues like  “Flight of the Phoenix” and “Retreat” (one of my absolute favorite cues in the score, right up there with Jerry’s best.

 

And I like Insurrection as pure music all the way through, way more than First Contact or Nemesis. I never feel like hitting “skip” on a single cue in that complete score. It’s all good. And unlike First Contact and Nemesis which each got only one truly fantastic new Goldsmith theme (Shinzon’s theme in the End Credits of the latter… wow!), Insurrection got MULTIPLE great and memorable new themes — the love theme for Anij, the theme for the Ba’ku as a people, and the theme for the regenerative properties of their planet showcased so beautifully in “New Sight”. Yes, I do dock it some points for reusing the action motif from US Marshals earlier in the year, but those themes far outweigh that.

 

For me, Jerry’s two TOS film scores do stand head and shoulders above any of his three TNG scores. The Motion Picture and The Final Frontier (my personal favorite) are both absolute masterpieces. But I rank the TNG scores, all still quite good, as follows:

1. Insurrection 

2. First Contact

3. Nemesis

 

I absolutely consider First Contact the most overrated Goldsmith Trek score (and also probably most overrated Trek film), and Nemesis one of the most underrated… but I still rate FC slightly higher.

 

And I think Goldsmith’s contribution to Looney Tunes: Back in Action is greater than his work on any of the TNG Trek films.

 

Yavar

[Faleel 5,355]

Yeah, but @Yavar Moradi Nemesis:

 

has the Starfleet Motif from TMP.

 

doesn't dump the adversity Motif, for a similar sounding one for no reason

 

isn't bloated and distant sounding

 

Has more interesting "sounds".

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

All fair points but I was never in love with the pumping Starfleet motif from TMP (it was fine, but hardly a highlight of that score for me... neat that Jerry clearly called back to his first Trek score in his final one though). I actually like the "new adversity motif" in Insurrection. I like the old one but Jerry just didn't use it consistently and it was neat to hear something more new and fresh to make up for the familiar US Marshals motif throughout some.

 

I think the GNP expansion improved the sound quality of Insurrection but I agree the DE of Nemesis sounds better.

 

I think I just care more about thematic material and its development.

Yavar