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It looked to me like his tomfoolery was defeated ages ago here, no? Isn't it just the case that the thread now serves as a guilty pleasure to bored JWFanners?

... except that it is wrong. The notes you are referring to (as written down by @Falstaft ) are C A Eb C. The Vader Motif, in that key, would be C Ab Eb C. Surely you are not implying that JW, when quoting Vader's motif to deliver his hidden messages, made a mistake? ... except that you are wrong. If you are referring to the melody played by the flute, that fragment is G F# F# (one octave down) D B (then it goes to E). Nothing to do with the Darth Vader motif, which in that key would be B G D B.

Text description of musical structure can be misleading or incomplete. Sometime's it's best to let the notation speak for itself. So here's a rough and ready transcription of two passages being claimed are unambiguous, un-coincidental variations of the "Vader motif" as the above poster labels it. (The meter is tricky here, so this is a bit of a rhythmic approximation) [I'm not sure exactly what material you're referring to in "Follow Me," Mattris. The section that begins at 1:32 doesn't have a strong melodic profile -- kind of a series of step motions in and around D-minor (F-E, A-Bb, E-F), all in different octaves and instrumental choirs.]

Did a lot of work today where I could just listen to music on my own. For no reason at all I listened to scores exclusively from 1990. No C&C expansions, just the albums as released in 1990. I hopped around randomly within what I own from that year. Gremlins 2: The New Batch - Jerry Goldsmith Mr. & Mrs. Bridge - Richard Robbins (score cues only) Presumed Innocent - John Williams Back to the Future Part III - Alan Silvestri Stanley & Iris - John Williams Kindergarten Cop - Randy Edelman Miller's Crossing - Carter Burwell Avalon - Randy Newman The Godfather Part III - Rota/Coppola/Mascagni

Alien -- Jerry Goldsmith I'm actually surprised this wasn't nominated for Best Original Score, because as a whole it's impressive. Even though it was cut to pieces and replaced with temp in some scenes, Goldsmith really crafted a score that elevated the movie. The alternate cues Goldsmith composed for the main and end titles have this dark beauty to them, while the film version utilized the creepier and more 'alien' aspect of the film. But the brass runs in cues like "Parker's Death" and "The Shaft" are impressive, and he truly outdid himself with conveying the atmosphere and terror of the story so well. I miss Jerry.

Other leitmotifs which begin by outlining a minor thirds...: Imperial Motif (ANH) Jawa Motif (ANH) Death Star Motif (ANH, ROTJ) Jabba's Theme (ROTJ, ANH-SE) Qui Gon's Theme (TMP) Shmi's Theme (TMP, AOTC) General Grievous (ROTS)

Maybe the lack of music during the first trench run is supposed to highlight the fact that this run won't succeed. In the final cut of the film, once Biggs' scenes on Tatooine and his reunion with Luke on Yavin IV were cut, Luke is the only Rebel pilot we know. Wedge has a name, but we barely met him before this battle. The first trench run pilots are all new characters and Luke isn't in the sequence. If they succeed, then Luke flew with them for no reason. He's our main character and has earned the right to avenge his fallen friends and family by becoming the hero. In retrospect, the lack of music underscores the first trench run as a dry run for the audience so they know what to expect. Then when Luke makes his run with music, we know it will succeed even as his technology falters.

Forget Rey's theme, the real revelation here seems to be that Darth Vader's theme, thought for so long to be the quintessential minor-mode melody, was in a major key all along!

...all four of which you seem to have difficulties with.

Some movie fans memorise all their favourite lines from their favourite movie. But some fans also memorise all their favourite lines from the behind the scenes documentary.

The state of the art animatronics had only reached a certain level. Sy Snootles couldn't really open her mouth, she couldn't lip sync properly, her eyes couldn't move. You know, it was a very complex creature to develop.

We know there is a Safan coming sometime this year, and Roger's recent clue says: http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=12&p=81229#p81229 I've been calling Son of the Morning Star Safan's magnum opus for years on the boards, like here when his score to The Last Starfighter was released complete by Intrada: http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6505&start=15 So I'd say this is almost certainly the next release...and if you don't know this incredibly powerful score, it's time to get acquainted! Yavar

👌

A BRIDGE TOO FAR A Bridge Too Far is a three hour snapshot at the terribly risky Operation Market Garden, whose objective was to secure three bridges in the Netherlands and drive the Nazi forces back into Germany, just as Generals Monty and Patton where plowing through in France, to the south. I’ll try to analyze this without going into too much detail about the actual strategy of the attack and the the events of the film. To begin, this film has an incredible cast. Directed by Richard Attenborough, starring Sean Connery, Dirk Bogarde, James Caan, Michael Caine, Robert Redford, Gene Hackman, Edward Fox and Elliot Gould, among others. Heck, even Denholm Elliot has a minute-long appearance. The performances carry the viewer along through the action and events to near perfection. Some darn fine acting. A Bridge Too Far is a large-scale film. It’s all practical too, making the project an even more interesting achievement. They basically reenacted the entire operation, and they did it in a way that is cinematically fitting. The execution of particular scenes, such as the first attempt at the Arnhem Bridge (pictured), are near perfect. Splendidly captured and expertly covered, they really make for a captivating image of the historical foundation for this film. Additionally, there are some small details and facts tied in quite nicely, such as a certain Harry, who always carries an umbrella into battle to prove he is British. A couple of scenes stand out as ridiculously good (not good, because it’s still about war, but you know what I mean). At one-point, General Urquhart is separated from his division and takes refuge from the Nazi patrols in a small local household. As he communicates with the surprised citizens, a Nazi soldier walks past the window, and Urquhart shoots him almost immediately, breaking the glass and terrifying the quaint Dutch family around him. It’s a sudden shock, because it’s built by very little action. Perhaps one of the most famous scenes is the fording of the Rhine. Allied troops row for their lives as they are spotted by German troops. Artillery fires, men scream, bodies fly, but over all this the most precedent audio is the commander’s frantic prayer, repeating again and again as his troops are picked off. The air drop is another amazing accomplishment. So many planes and parachutes. Wow. There are too many great directive moments to mention, but the point is that this is nothing short of a fine film. Attenborough really pushes the terror and tragedy of war, often bringing the focus on the Dutch families whose homes have been occupied by the respective forces. One scene shows blood dripping from a soldier’s wound onto a child’s toys in a home that has been turned to a battlefront hospital. Absolutely stunning symbolism and great imagery are portrayed throughout. On a closing note, John Addison, who was a part of the real Market Garden (thanks @Richard for sharing that tidbit), scored this film. The main theme is essentially a militaristic march, but it's mostly played in a joyous note rather than a reflective and mournful one. RATING: ***** out of ***** CONSENSUAL STATEMENT: “Perfectly executed. A stunning look at Operation Market Garden.” -Jerry

Close Encounters of the Third Kind by John Williams A masterpiece. From the versatility of fugal pieces such as Roy and Gillian on the Road, to the integrity and intensity of Roy's First Encounter, Barry's Kidnapping, Barnstorming and such, this score serves up a little bit of everything. The opening orchestra hit was always one of my favourite entrance cues. Top notch Williams writing here. VICE by Nicholas Brittel A bit of a breakthrough year for Brittel in my books, considering he composed two scores last year that I really, really enjoy. VICE can turn from groovy disco styles to a track beat, and from something borderline baroque to something very modern. Another score that offers up so many different styles in surprisingly good cohesion. The main theme is stellar too. Excited for future works from this fellow. For sampling, best to listen to Conclusion- The Transplant. Moonraker by John Barry Not entirely impressed by this score. Mostly general Bond material, but it just isn't presented in a way that Thunderball or On Her Majesty's Secret Service was. Star Wars: The Phantom Menace by John Williams A complete edit arranged in the style of the '97 OT Special Editions. Really, really good. When it comes to the Prequels, it's really hard to pick favourites. This score is normally vying for first though. The Droid Invasion, Escape from Naboo, The Great Duel, The Flag Parade. Great themes and a phenomenal third act of score. Lovely how Duel of the Fates serves as a setpiece for the entire final act rather than for just the duel. Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides by Hans Zimmer Unfortunately, I feel this to be one of the weaker Pirates scores. The new themes are still very good: the haunting mermaids, the epic Spanish, the evil Blackbeard. Some of the guitar material can be quite delightful too, but when it comes to serving up new arrangements or ideas, I'm not entirely impressed. A lot of the music feels tracked from the earlier films at times, and it can be annoying when key moments are simply recycling old ideas. Par exemple, at the Fountain of Youth, Blackbeard's -ahem- demise is underscored by a segment of Make Way for Tortuga from Dead Man's Chest. Missed opportunities, good themes, more Pirates action. For sampling, best to listen to Mermaids. At Eternity's Gate by Tatiana Lisvoskaya Impressive. Centered almost entirely on the piano (select violin solos too, I recall), this score really brings a fair bit of tranquility and beauty. I wouldn't say that there is too much aside from the main theme, but that in and of itself is lovely. For sampling, best to listen to Van Gogh Theme II (With Violin).

In the film, I like the lack of music between those cues. (Obviously, it still would've been even cooler if Williams had recorded some unused cue for this part of the sequence!) Unscored action scenes can be extremely effective, IMO. The T-Rex attack in the first JP and the bar fight in Raiders play beautifully with no music whatsoever. (Again, if only there were unused cues we could listen to outside the context of the film!) As far as why goes...your guess is as good as mine, but my money's on the contrast thing and (especially) avoiding audience fatigue.

Yes, because he does it all the time.

Never really noticed that there is so long part of the battle without any music. Actually realised that when I was in the orchestra performing SW live last fall, it felt guite strange to just sit there and not playing during the action!

You know you'll hear "Paul is dead" if you play Qui-Gon's Funeral backwards.

Awwwwww shit. This melody has the two minor third notes too...what does this mean? Was the Resistance another ploy created by Palpatine in another long-con siege of power? This time to eliminate Snoke and remove the competition? Will Rey, envoy of Palpatine, betray the Resistance in a stunning reveal of loyalty to her lineage?

That means Williams, at 87 years old, has now lived more years collaborating with Spielberg than years without. Quite an accomplishment.

The music disappears when Gold Squadron's Y-Wings and Red Leader make the first trench run. Vader's small TIE squadron picks them off and their run fails. The music returns after about five minutes when Luke, Wedge, and Biggs reenter the story, and Luke's run is a success. Truthfully, music would have overwhelmed the first trench run because of all the screaming TIEs and nervous claustrophobic chatter. But more importantly, Luke wins because he has music on his side. No music, no success.

I think it works very well. It's not until after the original SW that wall to wall scoring became the norm, both for all later SW films and for other action/adventure fare. Especially in the 70s, spotting was much more specific in where and where not to put music, and it could have a huge effect on the impact of the score when it appeared. Just think of Goldsmith's Coma, which has no score and hardly any incidental music in its first half and then goes all out with horror mode Goldsmith. The Yavin battle is still the best of all SW battles, and I think the unscored sections add to that. It's not all fighting and chaos, there's also some genuine tension there. And the climax gets an extra boost not just the music narrates it so well, but also because it provides a strong contrast to what comes before.

Yeah, because in the 70s they had actual spotting sessions. Nowadays the director and the composer watch the film together and then decide within ten seconds that the entire film must be crammed with mediocre, non-thematic droning.

From memory, the unscored part is where Luke basically has no active role to play in the battle.

I've also always found this strange. I mean, I get that this is how many movies were spotted in the 70s. But to me, it was the wrong choice. I think the battle would be more exciting if there had been music in that unscored section. It would have been great if, even if George didn't use it, if JW had written and recorded something for it we could hear. Oh well.

The whys and the wherefores aren't really here nor there to me, I'm a late comer to the thread who is just noticing your beleaguered deaf-eared style of debate. Fine in of itself in a quaint sort of way, but I've also picked up on a Josh500ish streak of flat out refusal to even consider any arguments other than your own inflexible theories, which is probably a bit of a blight on any respect you may have garnered with the rest of the bunch. Me though, I'm just here for the shits and giggles

A lot of it is adapted from Batman Forever, but there's also a lot of original music.

I thought it had a lot of genuine dramatic weight, and much more emotional resonance than most other Marvel flicks. It’s the type of movie that gets better the more I think about it.

He doesn't write haphazardly: he writes intuitively. He watches the movie (and does nothing but watch the movie) and writes music to accentuate (or contrast) the emotion that the scenes make him feel. That's a great way to compose film scores. The kind of "prescient" writing style you refer to is more befitting of a Howard Shore score.

I agree with this, his latest post makes it obvious that it's some sort of massive wind up. In which case, it's brilliant! All of it!

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Here's hoping today's the day that E.T. phones comes home.

Don't forget the "Closing In" theme from "Catch me if you can"! There must be some hidden connection between Frank Abagnale, the Emperor, and Rey... and Williams is cleverly hinting at that through the minor third interval! It cannot be a coincidence.

I knew that was coming.

As I mentioned in my post above, I wouldn't be surprised if William thought the music was too slight to release, and either couldn't or desire to rework it for an album setting. This approach wasn't too uncommon then, Goldsmith talked about it at least once.

What do you suggest we do... spank it?

'A Busy Man' is a great combination of score and visuals, certainly one of the 80's more notable moments (the short klingon theme quote in the eden theme is pure bliss).

So what didn’t you like about it?

No, it's also feasible you're simply overstretching, possibly out of blind unbridled fandom of John Williams. Anakin's theme taking inspiration from Vader's musical signature for its own sweet twist on the Imperial March is one thing, but resting your entire argument here on the fact that certain notes in a melody line up with others (IF one is inclined towards confirmation bias when analysing the structure of the music) is to my mind just a bit of elongated wish fulfilment. Quite harmless actually, until you start making accusations of purposeful dishonesty and all that petulant bollocks. I mean, don't you see how that might undermine your otherwise curious theories? There are definitely deliberate shades of existing themes present in newer material in the Star Wars scores, but the motivation and intent there is clearly tonal and poetic in nature rather than the simple basic ABC melodics of it - something which you seem to be unwisely fixated on here.

The aesthetic arguments about building tension and then letting it release (especially during a climactic sequence like this one) are of course always legitimate and solid when it comes to spotting. And it's also true that the original Star Wars was/is still a movie largely influenced by the aesthetics of 1970s filmmaking, where music was sparsely spotted more often than not. However, Star Wars had a lot of music even by those 1970s standards, so imho it was quite natural that Lucas, Williams and the editors thought to have longer stretches of silences to avoid ear fatigue in what was probably perceived as a "noisy" film.

Always gets my blood pumping.

These are all girly themes with their 'harmony' and 'notes'. What are you guys on your period.

Oh yeah, the Arena! Goddamn, that is meaty! Also love that low brass etc. at 5:12.

Ah, yes, from their early 2000s comeback. Good stuff indeed. Story goes that Prince gave them the song because he had a (unrequited) thing for Susanna. The media ate it up, and of course management was very pleased. Anyway, Here is Eternal Flame from 2001

Had no idea Manic Monday was written by Prince until I did a cover of the song a couple of years ago. I like this acoustic version:

As someone who remembers seeing this at its theatrical release along with Jaws, you could also ask why wasn't this scored until -0:54 in this clip? I really believe Jurassic "Shark" *cough* and @Brundlefly nailed it. Silence proceeding maximum intensity is more effective and these films were locked so the composer could discuss with the director how music could support the maximum intensity by important use of non-scoring. That approach isn't used today. Test screenings/digital editing/temp scores/drop ins, etc. remove such silence. Question: Same question...Why is there no music here until 0:54? The music was not scoring the action, it was scoring the subtext (character's point of view). Luke and Brody's final desperate final attempt to defeat their foe against all odds and Marion Crane's successful escape until she realizes her getaway plan was at a poorly chosen venue.