Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (Score in the film) - SPOILERS ALLOWED!

[Taikomochi 1,136]

Let’s be charitable and call it a revision

[Edmilson 7,466]

John Williams fans: "JW is getting so lazy and unoriginal! How dare he re-use parts of his other scores?"

 

James Horner fans:

[TolkienSS 407]

3 hours ago, Damien F said:

 

i think this is the difference between discussing a score vs discussing its OST. I'm a big fan of the TROS score not just the subset of it that was included on the OST. In fact, I think the OST is one of worst presentations of a JW score in recent years. But my dislike of the OST doesn't mean I dislike the score. Thankfully, the FYC fills some of the gaps.

 

KOTCS is similar. The complete score really opens up the score which its presentation on the OST didn't allow it to do.

 

I understand that. But I see this from a different perspective. The casual Star Wars soundtrack listener will not seek any FYC promos or recording sessions that are listened to in closed backdoors.

 

And I see this from the perspective of John Williams, who puts the best material, in his mind, on his album.

And if he thinks that is the best music, I disagree.

[Damien F 1,742]

10 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

I understand that. But I see this from a different perspective. The casual Star Wars soundtrack listener will not seek any FYC promos or recording sessions that are listened to in closed backdoors.

 

And I see this from the perspective of John Williams, who puts the best material, in his mind, on his album.

And if he thinks that is the best music, I disagree.

 

I don't think there is any guarantee that JW structures his OSTs to only include his best material. He structures them primarily for listening experience, or at least how he defines listening experiences. He might think 80% of his best material from a score happens to be action cues, but he won't fill an OST only with action cues music because that doesn't fit his definition of a good listening experience. Unlike fans of scores, he might consider cues filled with existing themes to be redundant because those themes are elsewhere in the score. The result is excellent cues, some of the best in a score, being omitted from the OST in favor of lessor or more mundane cues in order to provide a more varied listening experience.

[Pawel P. 738]

On 22/06/2023 at 7:05 PM, Thor said:

Came back from the film a couple of hours ago.

 

Pawel likened it to THE LAST CRUSADE (which IMO is not only the best Indy score, but on my alltime top 10 JW list), but I'm afraid I didn't hear it. In fact, I felt quite the opposite. TLC is ripe with one individual setpiece after the other, containing longlined themes and clearcut beginnings, middles and ends. It's like a string of different concert pieces, both on album and in the film. DIAL, on the other hand, is far more in line with CRYSTAL SKULL, or the new STAR WARS scores -- i.e. 'contemporary' JW, with lots of small cells alternating and stacked on top of each other, like a puzzle. A short brass outburst there, a cymbal crash there, frenetic strings jumping around the scale. It's very busy, schizophrenic and -- to be honest -- very close to what I had expected.

 

That being said, there were some interesting nuggets here and there. "Helena's Theme", obviously, which is nice. Some references to existing Indy music, also beyond "Raiders". And -- interestingly -- a suspense ostinato fairly early on which sounded like it came right out of the MINORITY REPORT/WAR OF THE WORLDS school. Basically a version of the "Spyder" theme from MINORITY REPORT. That was cool.

 

There's also some setpiece music that is similar to "A Whirl Through Academe" from CRYSTAL SKULL or the swashbuckler sequence in TINTIN. I think JW played a bit from this in the surprise premiere performance. That was okay too.

 

I found the mix OK for a modern action blockbuster, but the most "actioney" sequences had the music mixed too low (I saw the film in IMAX, btw). So I'm looking forward to hearing this on the OST to find if my film impression holds up or not.

 

Thor, by comparing this score to The Last Crusade, I meant the fact that there is one dominant new main theme and lots of action music. It's just a very "busy" score with a lot going on. And that's what I meant.

 

You wrote about TLC: 'It's like a string of different concert pieces, both on album and in the film. Dial, on the other hand, is far more in line with Crystal Skull, or the new Star Wars scores — i.e. ‘contemporary’ JW, with lots of small cells alternating and stacked on top of each other, like a puzzle. A short brass outburst there, a cymbal crash there, frenetic strings jumping around the scale. It's very busy, schizophrenic and - to be honest - very close to what I had expected".

 

Well, I just have this feeling with Star Wars Sequel Trilogy scores - most of the pieces at least - that there are a lot of different concert pieces that have a proper beginning, proper middle part and proper end. Of course, old themes return more often in Sequel Trilogy than The Raider's March in TLC, but this is due to the nature of the film.

 

I agree, however, that the mix of music and visuals is not perfect in Dial of Destiny, especially in the numerous action and chase sequences, so it's hard for me to say anything more detailed today about the accompanying music (other than that I really liked what I heard). And yes, I didn't hear another Anderton Great Escape or another Visitor In San Diego here. But like you, with DOD I got what I expected. And this is very good news for me and, I think, for many people who appreciate Williams' music from the last decade much more than you do.

[Darth Mulder 154]

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?ref=search&v=1466002814218209&external_log_id=476a3157-0ba6-4ee9-bbf3-46ed156c2e53&q=Indiana Jones

 

JW did something similar in KOTCS with the War of the Worlds theme. I'm fine with that.

 

The worst thing is that it will probably cost him another Oscar nomination.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Oh no! What will the second most nominated man in history do without one more???

[Darth Mulder 154]

17 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

Oh no! What will the second most nominated man in history do without one more???

 

He may be the first. So little was enough for him to achieve. Half an hour to compose original music and not lazily look in the archive for what fits in the film. #notmycomposerheroanymore #refusehornerstyle

[Tom 4,661]

Plus, it would keep him from losing.  

[HunterTech 994]

14 hours ago, Pieter Boelen said:

I feel like John Williams is affected more by the quality of the film than, say, Jerry Goldsmith.

On TRoS, and KotCS too, I have the impression the movies coloured the score in unfortunate ways.

 

The Eiger Sanction is not what I would call a good film, yet it sure got one of his most intriguing overlooked works for my money.

 

Is old age and the manner in which movies are produced nowadays really that implausible as the primary things that get in his way now?

[King Mark 3,631]

I think TROS is pretty good, and the track Rise of Skywalker is one of the best concert version of a theme he ever did.

 

And were missing Lando Arrives, probably the best statement of the main Star Wars theme in the 9 movies

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

It’s a decent score with a great ending and an even better concert suite.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Hearing We Go Together in the theaters for the first time with no prior knowledge of the score was one of my best JW experiences.  A surprisingly sentimental piece for Star Wars 

[mrbellamy 6,287]

Falcon Flight is rad and all but We Go Together was the one I couldn't stop listening to when the FYC first leaked out 

[Thor 7,508]

14 hours ago, Pawel P. said:

 

Thor, by comparing this score to The Last Crusade, I meant the fact that there is one dominant new main theme and lots of action music. It's just a very "busy" score with a lot going on. And that's what I meant.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with that assessment. TLC is both less "busy" than its two predecessors and doesn't really have one dominant new main theme (if you're referring to the grail theme, it doesn't appear that often). It has several. It's incredibly slick and smooth. A lot of the action music sounds like self-contained concert pieces that are almost composed in advance of the film.

 

14 hours ago, Pawel P. said:

Well, I just have this feeling with Star Wars Sequel Trilogy scores - most of the pieces at least - that there are a lot of different concert pieces that have a proper beginning, proper middle part and proper end. Of course, old themes return more often in Sequel Trilogy than The Raider's March in TLC, but this is due to the nature of the film.

 

Hmmm, I don't really hear that either. To me, THOSE scores are insanely busy. There are some tentative, self-contained setpiece tracks, of course ("March of the Resistance", "The Jedi Steps", some Rey things), but nothing that comes even remotely close to the general approach of TLC. And that makes sense, because a) Williams is not the same composer he was in 1989 and b) films are made differently today, with different editing rhythms, sound mixes etc. So I can perfectly well understand why it is so, even if I don't always like it.

 

14 hours ago, Pawel P. said:

But like you, with DOD I got what I expected. And this is very good news for me and, I think, for many people who appreciate Williams' music from the last decade much more than you do.

 

Yes, I think that's probably it. We both got what we expected, but we have very different relationships and opinions about said 'sound' or approach. Could be an age difference thing here too.

[Pawel P. 738]

10 minutes ago, Thor said:

Yes, I think that's probably it. We both got what we expected, but we have very different relationships and opinions about said 'sound' or approach. Could be an age difference thing here too.

 

Ok, we don't have to agree on everything. I stand by my opinion, especially regarding the Sequel Trilogy scores. I'm turning 47 this year, by the way.

[Thor 7,508]

6 minutes ago, Pawel P. said:

 

Ok, we don't have to agree on everything. I stand by my opinion, especially regarding the Sequel Trilogy scores. I'm turning 47 this year, by the way.

 

So no age difference. Just different opinions. I can live with that too.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

I agree with Thor. The sequel trilogy is mostly made up of music that just mirrors events as they happen on screen. It's all very "Mickey Mousey."  The original trilogy and movies like The Last Crusade in particular have music that's a lot more coherent, focused and "concert-y" for lack of a better word. I think Thor's spot on when he says TLC sounds a little more pre-meditated or "written in advance" and I think he's also right that the difference between these approaches mostly comes down to the way that modern films are being edited and re-edited these days, sometimes right up to the last minute.

 

I will never understand how anyone can call the opening sequence of The Last Jedi "classic Williams" or a "musical tour-de-force." In my view it isn't either of those things at all. But I never expected it to be either of those things. John's changed too much and just as importantly, so has the industry.

[Edmilson 7,466]

Taking the opening battle of TLJ as an example, it is composed of numerous short cues (more than 10, including the revisions and inserts, IIRC) that in the final cut of the movie get shuffled around like a child playing with Legos. Of course JW could never write something like the Battle of Hoth for it, from the scoring to the final cut too much stuff changed, so JW probably thought (or was told to) that it was better to write shorter cues that it would be easier to edit into the changing cuts.

 

On the other hand, the Battle of Crait from the same movie is probably the most coherent tour-de-force JW has written since, what, the jungle chase from KOTCS? The opening battle of ROTS? It's a much more cohesive group of action cues than anything in the ST.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Sounds like I'll have to revisit the Crait sequence then!

[Remco 685]

Battle of Hoth is also compromised of several smaller cues.

 

Yes, TLJ opening was butchered in the movie, but are you seriously not hearing any dramatic arc in the OST track? 
 

I do agree that the ST seems to have smaller musical cells but damn some parts in TLJ, like this one, are an exception to that.

 

Also Way of The Force/Scherzo for X-Wings (FYC version, in the movie!), just to name an example. Coherent arc that goes on for minutes, even in a JJ Abrams movie. It is possible.

[Brónach 1,302]

On 24/06/2023 at 9:20 AM, Thor said:

Hmmm, I don't really hear that either. To me, THOSE scores are insanely busy. There are some tentative, self-contained setpiece tracks, of course ("March of the Resistance", "The Jedi Steps", some Rey things)

 

this is the sort of sentence where i can't tell if someone means the score, the album or the concert pieces

[Faleel 5,353]

20 hours ago, Edmilson said:

On the other hand, the Battle of Crait from the same movie is probably the most coherent impressive performance/achievement that has been accomplished or managed with great skill JW has written since, what, the jungle chase from KOTCS? The opening battle of ROTS? It's a much more cohesive group of action cues than anything in the ST.

 

[Edmilson 7,466]

6 hours ago, Remco said:

Yes, TLJ opening was butchered in the movie, but are you seriously not hearing any dramatic arc in the OST track? 

But that is the point: JW couldn't build any dramatic arc because, by the nature of the editing of the movie, he had to write over 10 minor cues plus their inserts, etc. It's much harder to build something cohesive when you have small cues that will be tossed around during editing.

[Faleel 5,353]

A representation of how ST scores were put together:

 

[Amer 2,110]

Dunno if it has been posted yet but French Horn player Sarah Willis just posted a cue sheet front page 'Whip at a Gun Fight' from the sessions on her facebook page.

 

https://www.facebook.com/100044566721973/posts/pfbid0dwDrqpsDddP3CST3anVF7PvSriLZdZTFXDJ2QHZhBRuQjsYatCEgrH6hAg7QxNdYl/?mibextid=Nif5oz

[Edmilson 7,466]

Cool! So we have our first cue with reel/part numbers!

[BrotherSound 2,242]

It’s even got a date: 7/28/22

[Jilal 569]

And a version number

[ragoz350 450]

Have we ever seen markings like "v1.1" in JW's scores? Hm

Though hardly a significant change, such details are curious nonetheless.

[Jilal 569]

7 minutes ago, ragoz350 said:

Have we ever seen markings like "v1.1" in JW's scores? Hm

 

Don't think so!

 

EDIT: Actually, yes, for example 1M1A v3 in TFA

 

7 minutes ago, ragoz350 said:

Though hardly a significant change, such details are curious nonetheless.

 

Agreed

[BrotherSound 2,242]

Also, extremely minor nerdy detail: based on “3M10”, looks like he’s continuing to use the type of numbering he used for TROS, where each reel starts over at 1:

 

1M1–1M12

2M1–2M12

3M1–3M12

etc.

 

Rather than the numbering he used for TFA and TLJ, where the cue numbers continue to increase throughout the film:

 

1M1–1M9

2M10–2M19

3M20–3M29

etc.

[Jay 37,369]

50 minutes ago, Amer said:

Dunno if it has been posted yet but French Horn player Sarah Willis just posted a cue sheet front page 'Whip at a Gun Fight' from the sessions on her facebook page.

 

https://www.facebook.com/100044566721973/posts/pfbid0dwDrqpsDddP3CST3anVF7PvSriLZdZTFXDJ2QHZhBRuQjsYatCEgrH6hAg7QxNdYl/?mibextid=Nif5oz

 

 

Nice find! 

 

 

3 minutes ago, BrotherSound said:

Also, extremely minor nerdy detail: based on “3M10”, looks like he’s continuing to use the type of numbering he used for TROS, where each reel starts over at 1:

 

1M1–1M12

2M1–2M12

3M1–3M12

etc.

 

Rather than the numbering he used for TFA and TLJ, where the cue numbers continue to increase throughout the film:

 

1M1–1M9

2M10–2M19

3M20–3M29

etc.

 

I love these details! 

[Jilal 569]

5 minutes ago, BrotherSound said:

extremely minor nerdy detail

 

How unusual here at JWFan!

[Alex Shore 83]

From the Facebook Page of Sarah Willis.

[thx99 1,740]

Is it just me, or does that fuzzy-looking conductor look like William Ross in the second picture above? 

[Jilal 569]

5 minutes ago, thx99 said:

Is it just me, or does that fuzzy-looking conductor look like William Ross in the second picture above? 

 

Nice find! Looks like Ross rather than Williams indeed.

[Bespin 8,483]

11 minutes ago, thx99 said:

Is it just me, or does that fuzzy-looking conductor look like William Ross in the second picture above? 

 

A co-conducted score? Oh Ho!

[bollemanneke 3,349]

Co-composed you mean?

[Bespin 8,483]

6 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Co-composed you mean?

 

Don't do that again!

[Jay 37,369]

On 21/06/2023 at 3:47 AM, Pawel P. said:

Williams and Ross are listed as conductors.

 

[bollemanneke 3,349]

1 minute ago, Bespin said:

 

Don't do that again!

Do what? Ross wrote great cues for HP2!

[D_A_R_T_H 24]

Are the scores in chronological order and, if not, does anyone have an idea of the correct order ?
 

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I have been anticipating the score. I really love Raiders and Temple, two near perfect 5 star scores. I actually prefer Crystal skull over LC. But both are incredibly listenable.  I can say I have listed to Raiders and Temple over 1000 times over the last 43 and 39 years respectively. almost as much for LC, and several hundred times for Skull. Cant wait to see how Filmtracks rates Destiny. 

 

Surely someone will rate the score so that in our upcoming 2023 Top JW scores it gets a bit of love.

[King Mark 3,631]

So to anyone who just listened to the OST and saw the film and heard all the unreleased music, what's the damage report?

1 hour ago, JoeinAR said:

I actually prefer Crystal skull over LC.

 Least Crusade?

[Pieter Boelen 740]

I was just listening to Last Crusade last night and I had almost forgotten how good it is.

No mickey mousing for a change, but well-developed long themes.

And that Grail theme really fills the picture with its own special atmosphere.

[King Mark 3,631]

Can anyone confirm what the end of Prologue theme is ? Dial of Destiny theme?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

2 hours ago, King Mark said:

So to anyone who just listened to the OST and saw the film and heard all the unreleased music, what's the damage report?

 Least Crusade?

I did not say that. i am going to be non adversarial towards the scores I Don't necessarily hold close.to my heart.

[Nathan95 66]

Listed under the music credits in the film is a track called "Pulse of the City" written by William Ross.

 

I heard some interesting music during the New York chase scene, a Peter Gunn-like piano riff, which was mixed with other blaring pop music. This isn't on the album, and I wonder if that's what the credit refers to...

 

Sidenote on source music- I think this is the first time a Beatles song is used in a JW film which is satisfying for my own personal music obsessions

[Damien F 1,742]

I just saw the film. There is obviously unreleased music but I didn't hear any major holy grails cues of the level of Falcon Flight or Lando's Arrival that were omitted from the TROS ost. It will require more forensic analysis to determine how much unreleased music is in the film. But nothing massively significant jumped out at me but there is a lot of microedits.

 

Unsurprisingly, the tuk tuk chase lasts a lot longer in the film than the duration of the album track. Parts of the second half of the chase in the film is scored with repurposed TLC music like "Germany, 1944" was. I definitely heard Escape from Venice (not tracked). But there is also a few statements of Indy's theme.

 

Here is a statement of Indy's theme during the tuk tuk chase:

https://www.whyp.it/tracks/106778/tuktukindy1?token=sFffu

 

And another one (this clip has dialog between Indy and Helana but I don't consider it particularly spoilerific)

https://www.whyp.it/tracks/106779/tuktukindy2?token=SNwt2

 

The parade scene in New York is scored by that unreleased 1970s style music interspersed with diegetic parade music. It is a very busy and chaotic sound design with score often being drowned out. Here is a short clip to get the flavour of the score in that scene (this also contains dialog between Indy and a cop but again I don't think it is much of a spoiler but avoid if you want to go into the film knowing absolutely nothing)

https://whyp.it/tracks/106777/parade?token=7SvNK

 

Here is the final few moments of the film and the end credits. The credits start when the Indy theme plays:

 

Part 1

https://whyp.it/tracks/106786/endcredits?token=nFGHr

 

Part 2
https://whyp.it/tracks/106787/endcredits-2?token=Kieoj